# Clinton v Trump - The Stretch Run Thread
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [September 30, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277 "2016-09-30T11:21:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 70
### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1383 "2016-10-10T00:41:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Kellyanne needs to remind Trump about the first rule of holes. And not those kind of holes!!
“No, no, dig _up_, stupid!”
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### Author:  [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1384 "2016-10-10T00:42:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> What does cozy with Wall Street mean? It’s a nonsense phrase. It means whatever you want it to mean in the second you say it. Make specific intelligent claims.
I’ll use her own words: she believes that Wall Streeters should regulate Wall Street and that Wall Street didn’t cause the financial crash.
> [@](#):
>
> Pro-free trade is a big fucking ground. Being for the concept of free trade doesn’t mean being for the specific language in the TPP.
That’s her public position. Privately she’s for TPP and it will only take cosmetic changes for her to support it.
> [@](#):
>
> Open borders. As an eventual goal, that’s a good idea. Doing it tomorrow, probably a bad idea. So fucking what?
Open borders, like many other issues, is what we knew Democrats supported by which they vehemently denied. So in the future, when we make the accusation, it’s true in her case and probably true of any other Democrat.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1385 "2016-10-10T00:44:30Z")
> [@adaher](#):
>
> Go ahead, deny she’s cozy with Wall Street, or that she isn’t pro-free trade, or that she doesn’t support open borders.
This kind of crap is exactly why Congress hasn’t done anything useful in years. Politics is about making deals. When you make deals you compromise, and you can’t compromise under the stare of the extremists (on both sides) who are usually the noisiest. And who usually are not the majority of the country.
As for open borders, she said sometime in the future, with open trade. Clearly this is a dream of an EU like situation for the Americas. Future - not next January.
Kind of a nice dream, I think, unless you are scared of Latinos.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1386 "2016-10-10T00:44:34Z")
> [@adaher](#):
>
> Open borders, like many other issues, is what we knew Democrats supported by which they vehemently denied. So in the future, when we make the accusation, it’s true in her case and probably true of any other Democrat.
What do open borders mean? Are you saying Hillary Clinton is for a policy that eliminates the INS and similar agencies, abandons all border controls, and gives citizenship to anyone in the world who wants it? If not, what are you saying?
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### Author:  [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1387 "2016-10-10T00:47:22Z")
It means free, unfettered movement of goods and people into the US from whichever countries are part of the pact, much like the EU, as Voyager pointed out.
Also, she’s pledged not to deport non-criminals, which does pretty much mean unfettered immigration. You get here, you can stay. That’s her public position on immigration:
> **[Clinton: I won't deport children or non-criminals](https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/clinton-children-immigration-220541)**
>
> Jorge Ramos pressed Clinton on whether she'd be a "deporter-in-chief."
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### Author:  [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1388 "2016-10-10T00:47:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> 1. What does cozy with Wall Street mean? It’s a nonsense phrase. It means whatever you want it to mean in the second you say it. Make specific intelligent claims.
>
> 2. Pro-free trade is a big fucking ground. Being for the concept of free trade doesn’t mean being for the specific language in the TPP.
>
> 3. Open borders. As an eventual goal, that’s a good idea. Doing it tomorrow, probably a bad idea. So fucking what?
1 and 2 Again, what did Sanders mean when he leveled both criticisms at Clinton? That was pretty much his attack on her. It would have been seriously amplified by this leak. Bad timing by the leakers.
1. Very few voters outside the small core primary voting Democratic base agree with even setting ‘open borders’ as a goal for ‘someday’. Many voters, well beyond the Trump base, react quite negatively to the phrase ‘open borders’. A lot of Democrats including Clinton have been at pains to make clear it’s not what they favor, contrary to Republicans accusing them of supporting ‘open borders’. And as far as saying ‘well what does that really mean?’, a lot of politics is about catch phrases or broad brushes. I’m actually surprised she would have used the phrase.
But again I’m not saying it’s particularly deadly to her now in the whole context of the race v Trump.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1389 "2016-10-10T00:49:02Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#):
>
> Well [look](http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ct-billy-bush-today-show-20161009-story.html) who just got shit canned.
if I may … please include actual info in your post. The rest of us don’t necessarily want to click to learn what you’re saying. Besides, in 2 weeks the link might be dead. Thanks.
As a public service: The Chicago Tribune reports “Billy Bush suspended by NBC over Trump tape” With not much more meat in the article.
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### Author:  [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1390 "2016-10-10T00:53:36Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> As a public service: The Chicago Tribune reports “Billy Bush suspended by NBC over Trump tape” With not much more meat in the article.
As it’s a show I would never watch, I didn’t know…
[The married father of three is the nephew of former President George H.W. Bush.](The married father of three is the nephew of former President George H.W. Bush.)
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### Author:  [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1391 "2016-10-10T00:54:06Z")
> [@adaher](#):
>
> That’s her public position. Privately she’s for TPP and it will only take cosmetic changes for her to support it.
While it seems like she was on record previously supporting the TPP, she’s staked her remaining reputation on being against it. Since these speeches were made several years before the TPP was even negotiated, the speeches themselves don’t tie her irrevocably to supporting the TPP itself. She doesn’t have much choice now if elected but to either scrap the TPP or try to re-negotiate it.
> [@](#):
>
> Open borders, like many other issues, is what we knew Democrats supported by which they vehemently denied. So in the future, when we make the accusation, it’s true in her case and probably true of any other Democrat.
Given the full context of her statement, she seemed to envision a North American or maybe North/South American Union similar to the EU and the Schengen Agreement. So, even with that statement in her speech, she can still credibly claim that she is not in favor of open borders any time soon, but only once certain security or economic benchmarks are in place first in the framework of this kind of multi-national political or economic organization.
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### Author:  [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1392 "2016-10-10T00:55:58Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#):
>
> But again I’m not saying it’s particularly deadly to her now in the whole context of the race v Trump.
In the context of a race vs. Trump none of this matters. But this stuff is relevant to her governing. It tells us that whatever policies she tries to sell will not be sold with anything even approaching honesty. Her claims about the benefits of her proposals should be disregarded.
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### Author:  [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1393 "2016-10-10T01:28:55Z")
> [@AnalogSignal](#):
>
> One of the producers of The Apprentice, Bill Pruitt, says there are far worse Trump tapes.
>
> [x.com](https://twitter.com/billpruitt/status/784872190587998209)
>
> Producer Mark Burnett has all of this footage under lock and key.
>
> [Any footage of Trump's off-air 'Apprentice' talk under wraps | AP News](https://www.apnews.com/a1babd280c9c4f94a7abab4fecc3df57)
Hoping the Burnett people are able to figure out what to do to get the video out. My brother was reading something to me saying that they had a lot of him using the N word too.
Gofundme for paying their legal bills maybe.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1394 "2016-10-10T02:00:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> if I may … please include actual info in your post. The rest of us don’t necessarily want to click to learn what you’re saying. Besides, in 2 weeks the link might be dead. Thanks.
>
> As a public service: The Chicago Tribune reports “Billy Bush suspended by NBC over Trump tape” With not much more meat in the article.
Sorry. I was trying to create some suspense.
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### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1395 "2016-10-10T02:16:55Z")
> [@Lakai](#):
>
> Why are the quotes so important to you? Another poster summarized what was said and you can google several articles with the relevant quotes. That’s enough.
>
> And now another poster supplied the quotes you were looking for. Are you satisfied now?
Look - you’re the one who claims that these quotes are going to lose Hilary “significant” support. I’m interested in the quotes because they will determine the substance of your claim. The onus is on you to support your argument. Luckily for you someone else is trying.
Of course, thanks to gathnet, we can see for ourselves that this claim is nonsense.
> [@Lakai](#):
>
> I did not say it would anger her supporters. Just that it could lose her votes. And I did explain why.
So it won’t make her supporters angry, it will just make them not vote for her? Right.
> [@Lakai](#):
>
> What about these [grownups](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1280Z9?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social)?
No, random twitter and facebook posts don’t actually demonstrate that Clinton is losing votes.
> [@Lakai](#):
>
> Hordes of Mexicans? You are confusing free trade with immigration now. Maybe you should read up on why Hillary’s stance on free trade was such a major issue during the Democratic Primary.
No, no - I was refering to John Mace’s summation of Hillary’s statement, which you kindly quoted for me and which you insist is authoritative. John said, “2. Her vision is a for hemisphere of open borders and free trade.” John went to point to this as a statement specifically as support for open borders with Mexico.
That’s why I brought up the point that progressives aren’t scared of being overrun by Mexicans, unlike a certain other Party we could mention.
> [@Lakai](#):
>
> Her words were summarized, but that’s not enough for you apparently. It still gave you wiggle room to ignore them because they were not in quotes.
>
> And I do not have to convince anyone that Hillary is “scary”, nor do I want to. My argument is that reading these revelations will cause Hillary to lose support. And you have failed to adequately explain why that won’t happen.
It is kind of weird though, how you’re so convinced these words will upset Hillary supporters but you don’t appear to have actually known what the words were until someone else looked them up for you.
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### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1396 "2016-10-10T02:30:27Z")
> [@ganthet](#):
>
> The excerpts are apparently taken from a multitude of speeches that Clinton gave to various businesses and the actual text only seems to be available at [wikileaks](https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/927), though [articles](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/politics/hillary-clinton-speeches-wikileaks.html) have quoted very small selections here and there.
>
> This appears to be the public/private text:
>
> > [@Alleged Hillary Clinton speech](#):
> >
> > I mean, politics is like sausage being made. It is unsavory, and it always has been that way, but we usually end up where we need to be. But if everybody’s watching, you know, all of the back room discussions and the deals, you know, then people get a little nervous, to say the least. So, you need both a public and a private position.
>
> This appears to the open borders/open market text:
> [@Alleged Hillary Clinton speech](#):
>
> My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere.
AHHH - the sweet smell of primary (albeit dubious) sources! Thanks, gathnet.
And now that we can see the words themselves, it’s obvious what a total nothingburger this is.
1. The public and private positions - it’s patently clear that Hillary is not saying that it’s ok to lie in public or to never tell outsiders your true intentions. She’s clearly talking about how the punters get nervous sitting through tough negotiations and so it’s better to hold those negotiations privately and stick with simple public statements.
Again, this is not something grownups can complain about, given that every grownup who’s ever held a job has experience first hand with this sort of thing. It’s call managing expectations and staying on message. No politician has ever negotiated a treaty in public and none of them are going to start.
The only way this would turn off voters is if they allow the Clinton scandal sheets to manage the expectations that it’s another Clinton scandal. But just like all the rest - that dog won’t hunt.
2. The hemispheric common market quote - crikey, it really is a Coke commercial. Imagine all the people - open trade and open boarders, with endless free green energy in a golden land of opportunity, some time in the future. There’s probably even ice cream.
What a fucking nightmare that would be. Count me right the fuck out on that. Green energy? So I can’t even belch coal dust on my neighbors? Shit. And my neighbors are Mexican now. Or Guatamalan or something. Same difference. Why the fuck do I want to provide opportunities for everyone. Fuck those fuckers! Right? I’m not sharing my ice cream with those godless Mexicans. And those Canadian fuckers can fuck right off, too.
Yeah, this is totally going to kill Hillary’s chances. I bet she loses all the votes. I’m going to vote Donald now while there’s still time.
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### Author:  [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1397 "2016-10-10T03:07:10Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> Yeah, this is totally going to kill Hillary’s chances. I bet she loses all the votes. I’m going to vote Donald now while there’s still time.
I guess since you do not see how this is an issue that means that this will be a non-issue for everyone else.
But please also remember that I said this revelation would kill her chances in a normal election. No one is going to switch their vote to Trump and that was kind of my point.
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> It is kind of weird though, how you’re so convinced these words will upset Hillary supporters but you don’t appear to have actually known what the words were until someone else looked them up for you.
It’s weird that you think I did not know what her words were. I did not quote them in my first post because it was a post on a message board. I wasn’t writing a research paper. I would have followed up with quotes when other people asked for them, but other posters beat me to it.
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### Author:  [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1398 "2016-10-10T03:28:24Z")
LSLguy wrote:“Then again, Bill always did have kinda skanky taste. He could’ve had truly world-class supermodel type women.”
[https://www.google.com/search?q=elizabeth+gracen&biw=1135&bih=827&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfzsGdpc\_PAhXLHh4KHUkLBfAQ\_AUIBigB#imgrc=v1xY6NlsI00clM%3A](https://www.google.com/search?q=elizabeth+gracen&biw=1135&bih=827&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfzsGdpc_PAhXLHh4KHUkLBfAQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=v1xY6NlsI00clM%3A)
You were saying?
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1399 "2016-10-10T03:38:03Z")
The LDS church-owned [Deseret News](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865664336/In-our-opinion-Donald-Trump-should-resign-his-candidacy.html) believes Trump should resign in candidacy. They pointedly declined to endorse Clinton.
The Desert News hasn’t weighed in on a presidential election in 80s years.
It’s possible that this could actually have some influence on the race by encouraging more Mormons to not vote for Trump. Although the Deseret News is carefully claiming that this was their decision and not that of “the Church,” it will be seen that way by many of the members.
As I’ve posted, this could affect both Utah and Arizona. In addition, about 5% of Alaskans are nominally Mormons. Probably half or so of those are active, so that’s 2.5% to 3%.
The latest poll from pre-pussygate early October gives Trump 37%, Clinton 34% and Johnson at 10%. The undecided are a large factor, 18% say none or undecided. The majority of these lean Republican.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1400 "2016-10-10T03:40:23Z")
Poll of Mormons? Poll of Utah? Arizona?
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### Author:  [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1401 "2016-10-10T03:42:58Z")
> [@adaher](#):
>
> In the context of a race vs. Trump none of this matters. But this stuff is relevant to her governing. It tells us that whatever policies she tries to sell will not be sold with anything even approaching honesty. Her claims about the benefits of her proposals should be disregarded.
I don’t particularly disagree. But if the wheels don’t come completely off for the Republicans, looking less likely for the time being given Trump’s reasonably effective debate performance, they’ll hold at least the House and she’ll have little chance of enacting a left leaning legislative agenda. She’s less of an ideologue than Obama, so might adapt to that better than he has, that’s the positive way to say she doesn’t particularly believe in anything (of course it also depends how willing Republicans are to compromise which is _part_, not all, of why the works are completely gummed up now).
Both parties now lack votes in Congress for more free trade agreements, but repealing existing ones isn’t likely. The ‘elite consensus’ in favor of free trade is basically correct. It’s counterproductive to actively reverse it and I don’t think that will happen. Likewise scapegoating the financial system is counterproductive and I think there’s an underlying consensus against that also. Immigration is likely to remain a real flash point though.
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### Author:  [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-v-trump-the-stretch-run-thread/767277/1402 "2016-10-10T04:49:22Z")
The key to Clinton’s success will be using those relationships she forged in the Senate to their utmost. She’s never going to be able to rally the public the way a Reagan or her husband could.
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