# Clinton vs. Pence? Is there any cause for concern? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 8, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966 "2016-10-08T18:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/61 "2016-10-09T15:27:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That is why it could be done informally through a PAC. PACs are required to be independent entities from political campaigns and there are a whole [host](http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/indexp.shtml) of rules when they even coordinate or seem to coordinate communication in support of a candidate’s campaign. A PAC does not have official standing with a party and there does not appear to be any way that a PAC would be able to somehow circumvent RNC rules, particularly in a way that would shift it from mere communications and advocacy to direct participation in the electoral process and a campaign. > [@](#): > > Remember, one is only voting for a slate of electors. Even though the ballot says “Donald Trump” the slate of electors could still vote for Pence. There is no “writing in” Pence. I was referring to “writing in” Pence on the ballots themselves by voters, where state laws allow it. Since the Republican electors here were chosen by the respective state parties in coordination with the RNC and the Trump campaign and since many electors are senior party officials in the respective state, they would be risking their own positions by refusing to respect the will of the voters and instead selecting a new, off-ballot (for that position) candidate. Choosing such an action, particularly on a wide-scale, would risk collapsing the entire electoral college system and would likely ensure that a constitutional amendment would be in the works to abolish it shortly afterwards. While the occasional individual state-level elector may have an attack of conscience or choose to make a statement regardless of the consequences to them, it seems hard to imagine that a significant number of electors would independently choose to take this risk go down this route, particularly since their identities and position are public. As “crucial” and “historic” as all party officials of every party feel that every national election is, I can’t see very many state-level electors choosing to precipitate a constitutional crisis and jeopardizing their own positions and futures merely to (possibly) win one presidential election. Especially since this would mean passing the buck to the House of Representatives, who are the most vulnerable to electoral revolts given their 2 year election cycle. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/62 "2016-10-09T15:35:02Z")
Back to the question of Pence, the next 24 or so hours will be interesting. He and his advisers are huddled now deciding on what the hell to do. He’s got 2020 to think about. He can’t piss off the Republican base of racist, misogynist white men but he can’t lose the college educated white women either. So, what does he do? Bail now and lost the true-believing Trump supporters, or hang on and get his hands dirty. Neither one looks good on Nate’s maps. He’s [del]obviously waiting for the debate to see how the wind is blowing[/del] torn between principles. It must be a hard spot. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/63 "2016-10-09T15:38:20Z")
Only seven states count votes from write-in candidates without any restrictions. Some states do not count write-in votes at all. Most of the rest require that the candidate declare formally register themselves as a write-in candidate, which means their name can’t appear on the ballot. Pence would have to withdraw from the Republican nomination for VP to declare himself as a write-in. However, the point is moot as ballots have already been printed and mailed and people are already early voting. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/64 "2016-10-09T15:58:10Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > …I was referring to “writing in” Pence on the ballots themselves by voters, where state laws allow it… From the [Texas Secretary of State](http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/candidates/guide/president.shtml): > [@](#): > > Write-in candidates for President file a declaration of write-in candidacy with the Secretary of State. The declaration may not be filed earlier than July 23, 2016, or later than 5:00 p.m. of August 22, 2016. The declaration must include the information about and signed consent from the candidate’s vice-presidential running mate. In addition to the declaration, a write-in candidate for President must provide signed, written statements of consent to be a presidential elector candidate from 38 presidential elector candidates (the number of presidential electors that federal law allocates to Texas). Forms are linked below and may be obtained from the Secretary of State’s office. I don’t have the inclination to look up every state, but Pence _can’t_ be written in here. Neither can any of the also-rans. Any national jiggery-pokery with the electors will only be relevant for those not won by Ms Clinton. The Republicans need to find a graceful way to lose the Presidency (and I don’t see the hard-core Trumpistas playing nice)–and try to salvage the down-ballot offices. How sad. ETA: Now I see **bmoak** has done the research. Nope, write-ins won’t help. Also added: I enjoyed Lin-Manuel Miranda on _SNL_ quoting one of his _Hamilton_ tunes–“Never Gonna Be President Now.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/65 "2016-10-09T15:58:21Z")
Pretty sure Pence is waiting until after the debate, when he’ll have a better idea of how fast the ship is sinking and how best he can be viable in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/66 "2016-10-09T16:11:35Z")
I wonder if the Clinton campaign is preparing talking points and campaign ads in case they’re running against Mike Pence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/67 "2016-10-09T16:15:03Z")
The ads about his abortion stance (extremist, ftr) and his Islamophobic refugee stance are certainly already made. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/68 "2016-10-09T16:31:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > To me the astonishing thing is that anyone has any qualms about voting for Hillary, especially given that she is running against Trump. Hillary Clinton is so much better qualified and will be a much better president than Trump ever would be. Most of the arguments against Hillary are made-up bullshit. To be fair, I think it’s legitimate for Republicans to have qualms; I have to admit I would find it HARD to choose between a Hillary-like candidate whose policy preferences were exactly the opposite of mine and a Trump-like candidate whose policies – to the extent that he / she had any consistent ones – did seem to line up with mine. I would especially find it hard if the Hillary-like candidate were a climate-change denier, and a win by that candidate pretty much guaranteed that our government would take no action for the next four years on an issue that, in my opinion, threatens to destroy the entire future of the current generation of children, and has a time-limited window in which we can act to reverse it. A lot of Republicans feel exactly the same way about abortion that I do about climate change. Recognizing that makes it a lot easier for me to understand why people are still voting for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/69 "2016-10-09T17:10:26Z")
So what happens if Pence resigns from the VP spot on the ticket? Does Trump get to choose a replacement? Because I’m thinking Pence dropping out is a far more likely occurrence than Trump dropping out. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/70 "2016-10-09T20:21:54Z")
IMHO Pence should play the “statesman”, and take a “hit for the team”. He should soldier on with his crappy, doomed running-mate, BUT… a) He should no longer defend whatever ridiculous thing Trump said yesterday, or last week, or last year, or last decade. Just not discuss it, or brush it off in a way that shows that this stuff is below his (and everyone else’s) dignity, and talk about a more general Republican vision (maybe even stay on topic for that part). b) He should refrain from asking for votes for the top of the ticket. c) He should aggressively campaign for Republican values, emphasizing the importance (to Republicans) of holding the House and Senate, etc. IF down-ticket Republicans do well, and IF there is a perception that he helped with that, and IF anyone remembers, I’d think he be in a pretty good position 3 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/71 "2016-10-09T20:28:16Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > This would be true if we hadn’t seen the embrace of the tea party in 2010. The same people who voted Trump into his current role are the same assholes who formed the Tea Party a few years ago. That’s actually not accurate. Cruz was the favored Tea Party candidate. > [@](#): > > His very best voters are self-identified Republicans who nonetheless are registered as Democrats [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/upshot/donald-trumps-strongest-supporters-a-certain-kind-of-democrat.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/upshot/donald-trumps-strongest-supporters-a-certain-kind-of-democrat.html) He was also winning moderates who presumably liked his moderate positions on Social Security, Medicare, and social issues. And of course the Buchananites, who loved his anti-trade and anti-immigration agenda. But no, this one is not on the Tea Party. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/72 "2016-10-09T20:29:17Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I wonder if the Clinton campaign is preparing talking points and campaign ads in case they’re running against Mike Pence. If the GOP was creative, they’d have Mitch McConnell announce that Donald Trump will be impeached on Day 1 of his Presidency, making Mike Pence President. Then it is effectively Clinton vs. Pence, and it’s not as if there isn’t cause to impeach Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/73 "2016-10-09T20:42:58Z")
For the GOP to officially announce that its chosen candidate is not just somewhat unqualified, but guilty of impeachable offenses even before election day? Don’t get me wrong; I really hope they do that, because it would basically hand the election over to Hillary Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/74 "2016-10-09T20:44:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the GOP was creative, they’d have Mitch McConnell announce that Donald Trump will be impeached on Day 1 of his Presidency, … Yeah, _that_ would do a number on all the down-ticket GOP candidates, for sure. (Trump fans would make sure of that.) ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/75 "2016-10-09T20:45:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the GOP was creative, they’d have Mitch McConnell announce that Donald Trump will be impeached on Day 1 of his Presidency, making Mike Pence President. Then it is effectively Clinton vs. Pence, and it’s not as if there isn’t cause to impeach Trump. That would really get out the vote, particularly voters who are or were recently undecided. (That’s sarcasm in case you can’t tell). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/76 "2016-10-09T21:42:42Z")
Well if we’re talking about effectively putting Pence at the top of the ticket, that’s the only way other than to find a friendly judge who will let them do ballot switches in all 50 states. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/77 "2016-10-09T22:19:04Z")
Pence has already made his decision, and can’t well back down from it now. If he wanted to have even the possibility of repudiating Trump, he should have refused to be his running mate. And **Fretful Porpentine** , is there any actual evidence that Trump opposes abortion in any way? Last I heard, the major pro-life groups were refusing to endorse either candidate. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/78 "2016-10-09T22:21:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well if we’re talking about effectively putting Pence at the top of the ticket, that’s the only way other than to find a friendly judge who will let them do ballot switches in all 50 states. Again, the electors cast the real votes, not the individual voters. The electors pledged to Donald Trump in my state could cast their votes for Mortimer J. Bumbleweed, and it matters not that I put my mark, punch, lever next to the name Trump. Likewise, if those same electors say, “Put your mark next to Trump, and we will vote for Pence” then my mark next to Trump means a vote for Pence. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/79 "2016-10-09T22:25:40Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > PACs are required to be independent entities from political campaigns and there are a whole [host](http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/indexp.shtml) of rules when they even coordinate or seem to coordinate communication in support of a candidate’s campaign. A PAC does not have official standing with a party and there does not appear to be any way that a PAC would be able to somehow circumvent RNC rules, particularly in a way that would shift it from mere communications and advocacy to direct participation in the electoral process and a campaign. > I was referring to “writing in” Pence on the ballots themselves by voters, where state laws allow it. Since the Republican electors here were chosen by the respective state parties in coordination with the RNC and the Trump campaign and since many electors are senior party officials in the respective state, they would be risking their own positions by refusing to respect the will of the voters and instead selecting a new, off-ballot (for that position) candidate. Choosing such an action, particularly on a wide-scale, would risk collapsing the entire electoral college system and would likely ensure that a constitutional amendment would be in the works to abolish it shortly afterwards. While the occasional individual state-level elector may have an attack of conscience or choose to make a statement regardless of the consequences to them, it seems hard to imagine that a significant number of electors would independently choose to take this risk go down this route, particularly since their identities and position are public. > > As “crucial” and “historic” as all party officials of every party feel that every national election is, I can’t see very many state-level electors choosing to precipitate a constitutional crisis and jeopardizing their own positions and futures merely to (possibly) win one presidential election. Especially since this would mean passing the buck to the House of Representatives, who are the most vulnerable to electoral revolts given their 2 year election cycle. How would it be a “constitutional crisis” for electors to vote their choice for President? If anything it would be a return to the original understanding of the role of electors. It could be argued that this would be the use of that power that the founding fathers intended. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966/80 "2016-10-09T22:27:04Z")
The Tea Farty would go nuts. There would be riots. And Hillary would take Tennessee. (Unthinkable, in light of local views). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clinton-vs-pence-is-there-any-cause-for-concern/767966.md?page=5)