# Clockwise
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 11, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523 "2016-05-11T03:53:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@AlinAZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlinAZ)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/1 "2016-05-11T03:53:45Z")
How did people describe circular motion around a central point before clocks were invented?
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/2 "2016-05-11T04:01:41Z")
At a guess, by comparing the direction of motion of the object concerned with the direction of the apparent motion of the sun - “with the sun” or “against the sun” or some such phrase.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/3 "2016-05-11T04:12:17Z")
In fact, on checking the OED, I see cites for _clockwise_ (and _counter-clockwise_) from 1888, but cites for _with the sun_ from 1769. All the OED cites for _with the sun_ are nautical; e.g. the first cite describes the direction in which a rope is coiled.
The OED also offers _withershins_ or _widdershins_, whose primary meaning is “in a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way”. But there’s a secondary sense of “In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered as unlucky or causing disaster)”, with cites from 1545. The word doesn’t seem to have referred to counter-clockwise motion outside the context of an ill omen, and there doesn’t seem to have been any complementary word describing motion with the sun, whether as a good omen or otherwise.
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/4 "2016-05-11T15:04:04Z")
> [@UDS](#):
>
> In fact, on checking the OED, I see cites for _clockwise_ (and _counter-clockwise_) from 1888, but cites for _with the sun_ from 1769. All the OED cites for _with the sun_ are nautical; e.g. the first cite describes the direction in which a rope is coiled.
This usage evolved in the Northern Hemisphere, of course. [Because the progress of the shadow of the gnomon is counterclockwise south of the Equator:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Sundials_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere)
> [@Wikipedia](#):
>
> A sundial at a particular latitude in one hemisphere must be reversed for use at the opposite latitude in the other hemisphere. A vertical direct south sundial in the Northern Hemisphere becomes a vertical direct north sundial in the Southern Hemisphere. To position a horizontal sundial correctly, one has to find true North or South. The same process can be used to do both. The gnomon, set to the correct latitude, has to point to the true South in the Southern hemisphere as in the Northern Hemisphere it has to point to the true North. **Also the hour numbers go in opposite directions, so on a horizontal dial they run anticlockwise rather than clockwise.**
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### Author:  [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/5 "2016-05-11T15:05:42Z")
[QUOTE=UDS]
The OED also offers _withershins_ or _widdershins_, whose primary meaning is “in a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way”. But there’s a secondary sense of “In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered as unlucky or causing disaster)”, with cites from 1545. The word doesn’t seem to have referred to counter-clockwise motion outside the context of an ill omen, and there doesn’t seem to have been any complementary word describing motion with the sun, whether as a good omen or otherwise.
[/QUOTE]
(greening mine)
[Deosil](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deiseil) seems to be what’s been settled on for current use, and any number of old variants such as deisiel and dessel.
Until someone figured out how to transform a sundial into a mechanism that could hang on a wall, there probably wasn’t much need to describe rotation on a vertical plane.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/6 "2016-05-11T15:17:27Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#):
>
> Until someone figured out how to transform a sundial into a mechanism that could hang on a wall, there probably wasn’t much need to describe rotation on a vertical plane.
There has never been any difficulty about putting a sundial on a wall. The style has to be parallel to the axis of rotation of the earth (which means that your style needs to be angled to the horizontal plane at angle equal to your angle of latitude) but the dial can be at any angle at all. All that’s necessary is that the style be positioned so as to cast a shadow on the dial.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/7 "2016-05-11T15:18:36Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> This usage evolved in the Northern Hemisphere, of course. [Because the progress of the shadow of the gnomon is counterclockwise south of the Equator:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Sundials_in_the_Southern_Hemisphere)
Yes. But of course clockfaces also evolved in the northern hemisphere.
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/8 "2016-05-11T15:21:49Z")
The point is that sundials are very ancient. Just a stick driven into the ground will do.
I once asked an Australian if clocks ran the other way down under and he had no idea why one might ask such a question. But sundials certainly do.
After I explained my question, this Ozlander told me that in the first days of being a student in Cambridge, the sun was bugging him at his desk and he moved to avoid it. Dang it, 15 minutes later the sun was back…because he had reflexively moved to the left! Eventually he realized his mistake.
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### Author:  [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/9 "2016-05-11T15:29:48Z")
> [@UDS](#):
>
> At a guess, by comparing the direction of motion of the object concerned with the direction of the apparent motion of the sun - “with the sun” or “against the sun” or some such phrase.
> [@UDS](#):
>
> In fact, on checking the OED, I see cites for _clockwise_ (and _counter-clockwise_) from 1888, but cites for _with the sun_ from 1769. All the OED cites for _with the sun_ are nautical; e.g. the first cite describes the direction in which a rope is coiled.
>
> The OED also offers _withershins_ or _widdershins_, whose primary meaning is “in a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way”. But there’s a secondary sense of “In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered as unlucky or causing disaster)”, with cites from 1545. The word doesn’t seem to have referred to counter-clockwise motion outside the context of an ill omen, and there doesn’t seem to have been any complementary word describing motion with the sun, whether as a good omen or otherwise.
I’ve seen the expressions “sunwise” and “widdershins”, but my cite is a Fritz Leiber fantasy novel.
I can find sunwise in online dictionaries, but I haven’t seen anything to say how old the term is.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/10 "2016-05-11T15:38:05Z")
In ancient Sanskrit literature, dating back a few thousand years, if someone walked clockwise around something (often done in religious ceremonies) they would say that they ‘walked around it on the right’. i.e. the object, such as a building or a person being cremated, was on their right-hand side.
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### Author:  [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/11 "2016-05-11T16:28:04Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> In ancient Sanskrit literature, dating back a few thousand years, if someone walked clockwise around something (often done in religious ceremonies) they would say that they ‘walked around it on the right’. i.e. the object, such as a building or a person being cremated, was on their right-hand side.
In folk dancing (such as square dancing, contra dancing, circle dancing, et cetera) you might have all the dancers put their right hands in and walk around in a clockwise circle, calling that a “right hand star”. If just a pair of dancers do it, that’s “allemande right”. If everyone joins hands to form a big circle and moves clockwise, that’s “circle left”
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### Author:  [@NeonMadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeonMadman)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/12 "2016-05-11T16:40:19Z")
> [@AlinAZ](#):
>
> How did people describe circular motion around a central point before clocks were invented?
Further question: How will people describe circular motion around a central point after all clocks are digital?
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/13 "2016-05-11T17:02:48Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#):
>
> Further question: How will people describe circular motion around a central point after all clocks are digital?
There’s no particular reason to suppose that all clocks ever will be digital, barring some apocalyptic event that destroys all existing analogue clocks, and the memory of them (but somehow leaves us with the ability to continue making digital ones). People still like analogue clocks and will quite likely always continue to like them.
Even of it does happen, we’ll probably retain the terms, just like we retained ‘dialling’ in the context of telephony.
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### Author:  [@NeonMadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeonMadman)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/14 "2016-05-11T18:17:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#):
>
> some apocalyptic event that destroys all existing analogue clocks, and the memory of them (but somehow leaves us with the ability to continue making digital ones).
Y-you mean…an _ **aclockalypse** _?
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### Author:  [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/15 "2016-05-11T18:24:16Z")
Too funny!
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/16 "2016-05-11T19:49:11Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#):
>
> Y-you mean…an _ **aclockalypse** _?
They don’t call it the End Times for nothing.
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### Author:  [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/17 "2016-05-11T21:07:38Z")
Then you have the French, “dans le sens des aiguilles d’une montre” (in the direction of the hands of a watch) and “dans le sens inverse des aiguilles d’une montre” (in the opposite direction of the hands of a watch), which are phrases that are long enough that you will not be surprised to learn that no one ever says them. You will see “sens horaire” and “sens antihoraire” every now and again, but for the most part, \*clockwise \*and \*counterclockwise \*are most referred to as, “à droite” (to the right) and “à gauche” (to the left).
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### Author:  [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/18 "2016-05-12T00:28:49Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#):
>
> Further question: How will people describe circular motion around a central point after all clocks are digital?
How about “tightey” and “loosey”.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/19 "2016-05-12T00:43:56Z")
> [@sbunny8](#):
>
> How about “tightey” and “loosey”.
Well, why not? We have right hand thread and left hand thread (bolts and nuts).
“Coil the rope to the right” seems simple enough for clockwise.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clockwise/754523/20 "2016-05-12T01:34:10Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#):
>
> I’ve seen the expressions “sunwise” and “widdershins”, but my cite is a Fritz Leiber fantasy novel.
>
> I can find sunwise in online dictionaries, but I haven’t seen anything to say how old the term is.
Good thought. The OED has cites for both _sunwise_ (adj. and adv.) and _sunways_ (adv.).
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