# Cloned humans raised without parents. They grow to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2025, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921 "2025-04-11T17:59:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/61 "2025-04-14T12:57:21Z")
That’s common among my friends. The idea is that something to do with vocalization develops later, and babies can express their needs a little sooner with “baby signs”, which leads to everyone being happier. That theory became popular after my kids were little, so we didn’t explicitly try it. But my son was slow to talk and communicated exclusively with gestures for a few months. (Before he said any words, he gestured “pick me up”, and pointed in the direction he wanted us to go so he could point at the thing he wanted. Like going to the fridge to ask for milk.) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/62 "2025-04-14T13:14:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > also whether, if provided with some sort of leather or fabric, the humans started spontaneously wearing clothes and if so in what fashion. > > That would depend entirely on the temperature, I’d guess. If they were in some hot tropical environment, I’m gonna guess no. Except that actual humans living in hot tropical environments do wear clothes. Often very few clothes – but they still wear something, even if it’s only penis sheaths and some equivalent for women. The Sentinelese, from what pictures I’ve seen, don’t even wear that – but they’re all wearing belts. That might be purely practical, to give them something to stick tools into; or it might not. Basically what I’m wondering is whether the invention of physical modesty is essential in some way to humans; or whether it’s the result of some truly ancient historical accident. – I suspect the language would have both gestural and voiced components. Existing languages often do; though the gestural portions may or may not be explicit; some of them come under those “social cues” that most people seem to learn instinctively or almost so. The children would have to have access to each other for this, of course; but I expect they’d need that to develop any language at all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/63 "2025-04-14T14:43:08Z")
I thank @Der_Trihs for getting that out there before I could. I’ve also seen it commonly in patient families (as @puzzlegal shares, it has been a big thing among parents - “baby signs” - for two to three decades). And my own daughter, adopted from China at 13 months, learned to sign for “more” right away. We never bothered with others as her spoken language then _exploded_, but she would continue that sign for emphasis for a long time, basically a way to scream it since we obviously were not listening to her command fast enough! Signing is also used as an effective adjunct for spoken language impaired kids, including some with autism. Not sure how informative that is for the current question though. The question is if development recapitulates cultural growth, so to speak. The hypothesis goes that watching and mirroring hand use, using and creating tools, primed for otherwise using gestures to communicate, with that circuitry then being piggybacked onto by vocalizations. Of course the wiring is now primed and experience-expectant. I’d still WAG that gestures are easier for our brains to … ahem … grasp _de novo_. Yes assuming raised in a group. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/64 "2025-04-14T16:18:30Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Except that actual humans living in hot tropical environments do wear clothes. > […snip…] > even if it’s only penis sheaths I would consider penis sheaths decoration, and not clothes. Same-same for belts. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Basically what I’m wondering is whether the invention of physical modesty is essential in some way to humans In what universe are penis sheaths “modesty”? They’re as braggy as a Tudor codpiece. It’s also noteworthy that we were anatomically modern, but nude, for tens or hundreds of thousand years, before we started wearing clothing: [Lice study dates first clothing at 170,000 years – Research News](https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/science/lice-study-dates-first-clothing-at-170000-years/) > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Here](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1868823/). Ta. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/65 "2025-04-14T16:23:24Z")
Yeesh, which one of those two is the puppet!? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/66 "2025-04-14T16:23:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > decoration, and not clothes You define clothes as having a function other than decoration or social signaling? To me that seems historically a major function of clothing! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/67 "2025-04-14T16:27:02Z")
I feel like if you can’t be seen in public without it, then it is partly about modesty. Even if the penis sheath or brassiere is designed to accentuate your assets. (I have heard of at least one group of people who “would feel naked” without their enormous red penis sheath, but have no idea if that’s common.) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/68 "2025-04-14T17:18:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > To me that seems historically a major function of clothing! > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I feel like if you can’t be seen in public without it, then it is partly about modesty. Even if the penis sheath or brassiere is designed to accentuate your assets. @MrDibble: Both of those. ETA: > [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s also noteworthy that we were anatomically modern, but nude, for tens or hundreds of thousand years, before we started wearing clothing: I don’t think it’s clear whether we had further brain changes later than that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/69 "2025-04-14T18:29:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Among those who believe that language would emerge, possibly over several generations - do you think it would be initially primarily gestural or vocalizations? Probably vocal, because that’s what would be easiest for young babies to reinforce to each other. > [@DSeid](#): > > If released into a “natural setting” in which the groups had to gather or even hunt their food, how long until tool use, and complex tool use, would emerge? The very first generation for tool use in general. Unsure for more complex tools, but probably pretty quick. It could take thousands of years for agriculture to arise, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/70 "2025-04-14T18:33:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I have heard before that babies can learn to do sign faster than speech, it’s apparently simpler. Apparently some people teach their hearing children simple signs so they can communicate before learning to talk. Yeah, I did this. They can sign “all done” or “more” or “up” around the same time they can say “ada” or “ma” or “uh”. > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Yeesh, which one of those two is the puppet!? The bigger one ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/71 "2025-04-14T20:02:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You define clothes as having a function other than decoration or social signaling? Decoration and signaling can be functions of clothes. But just because it is used for decoration or social signaling, doesn’t make it clothing. For example, jewelry isn’t clothing. To me, at any rate. > [@DSeid](#): > > To me that seems historically a major function of clothing! Sure. Not _the_ major function, though, which has always been protection from the elements. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I feel like if you can’t be seen in public without it, then it is partly about modesty. It could also be about decorum\*, which is not the same thing. - which is etymologically related to decoration. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t think it’s clear whether we had further brain changes later than that. Possibly - I’m a gradualist on behavioural modernity, largely because Southern African archaeology points that way, but AFAIK, the jury is very much still out. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/72 "2025-04-14T23:08:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure. Not _the_ major function, though, which has always been protection from the elements. I’ve spun this discussion into a [separate thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-clothing/1017054) as I think it is a possibly interesting discussion but not really on point to continue here. To the point of this thread is @thorny_locust’s point: whether or not protection from the elements is needed, how long until some clothing was created to cover whatever area of the body got designated as not for public viewing, or (and include decoration or markings here) to designate social status within the group? Is that fairly hardwired in some manner, the exact manner being culturally determined. > [@Babale](#): > > The very first generation for tool use in general. Unsure for more complex tools, but probably pretty quick. So the concept of tool use is, you think pretty hardwired, and not culturally learned? And creating more complex tools should be a fairly automatic thing? Not debating the point. I _think_ I agree with the first part. Not as sure about the second. I think the concept of building new tools using other tools would a while for the Euraka moment. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/73 "2025-04-15T00:15:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Preparing something to be used as a tool, rather than using the found object as is. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s perhaps worth thinking about how often and under what circumstances you have come up with new ways to do this yourself, as a comparison. Not more than once a week, or so. But these kids will have plenty of time. > [@MrDibble](#): > > In what universe are penis sheaths “modesty”? They’re as braggy as a Tudor codpiece. And yet, a man not wearing one would be shunned in those cultures in much the same way as a man wearing nothing but one would be shamed in ours. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/74 "2025-04-15T01:50:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So the concept of tool use is, you think pretty hardwired, and not culturally learned? I think babies grab things, and thwack things with the things that they grabbed. I’m pretty sure that at least the idea of “poke or hit thing with other thing and see what happens” is hardwired; as is the idea of “pick up thing and carry it.” – and a Tudor codpiece is indeed braggy; maybe what the wearer’s being modest about is that its contents aren’t anything spectacular? It occurs to me that maybe some of the problem is the word I used, as “modest” does also mean “self-effacing”, but that wasn’t the sense I meant it in. I meant that humans generally have a tabu against allowing their genitals, usually anuses, and depending on the culture often quite a bit of the rest of the body to be visible to others under most circumstances; even though many cultures do allow total nakedness under some specific circumstances. And no other creature that I know of shows any signs of such behavior. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/75 "2025-04-15T05:20:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > how long until some clothing was created to cover whatever area of the body got designated as not for public viewing I mean, _why_ would that happen, in the first place? I think functional clothes came first, _then_ nudity taboos, not the other way around. > [@DSeid](#): > > Is that fairly hardwired in some manner I don’t thinks so, given that nudity has been acceptable in different times and places. If it were hardwired, it’d _never_ be OK. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/76 "2025-04-15T05:26:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And yet, a man not wearing one would be shunned in those cultures in much the same way as a man wearing nothing but one would be shamed in ours. Or the way someone not noble wearing yellow or purple would be in trouble in some previous cultures, or someone wearing morning dress to dinner, or wearing no shoes and shirt… is it about modesty (shame about exposure), or about decorum (what’s considered “classy” and proper)? Because many penis sheaths (I’m thinking especially Vanuatu) _hide_ nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/77 "2025-04-15T10:52:03Z")
Many women’s tops also hide nothing, but are nonetheless considered essential for decency. Someone wearing morning dress to dinner, meanwhile, might be gossiped about, but they won’t be arrested. And the restriction on wearing purple was a financial one, not social: If you could afford purple clothes, you were allowed to wear them. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/78 "2025-04-15T10:55:52Z")
Huh? I’m not familiar with a rule against purple, but it sure sounds like a [sumptuary law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law), which means it was absolutely not about who could afford it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/79 "2025-04-15T11:02:40Z")
Yeah, it was about enforcing class distinctions. Commoners weren’t allowed to dress like aristocrats. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921/80 "2025-04-15T12:13:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not more than once a week, or so. But these kids will have plenty of time. Can you give some examples? I tried to come up with some myself and couldn’t think of many. Maybe I’m missing some obvious ones… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloned-humans-raised-without-parents-they-grow-to-do/1016921.md?page=5)