# Cloning a Neandertal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098 "2013-01-23T13:29:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/41 "2013-01-23T17:07:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps I read too much into “lab experiment”, but I envisioned the creature kept in “the lab”. I see what you mean now. The phrase could be read as: [Create them] as an exercise to see if it can be done and then raise them to adult-hood, as a lab experiment = use a lab to create them, then raise them to adulthood. Or [Create them] as an exercise to see if it can be done, and then raise them to adult-hood as a lab experiment = the raising is a seperate part of a lab-experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/42 "2013-01-23T17:10:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The trouble is a Neanderthal might be fairly inept by human standards. What if they can’t deal with modern human language or learn how to read? What if they have huge impulse control problems by modern human standards? They aren’t physically the same as us, and a male might be superhumanly strong. > > I don’t think you can promise that he or she would be able to function in modern human society. Which would mean warehousing for life. I don’t think that’s ethical. You can’t promise that human babies will be able to function in modern human society. Especially when they’re born to older parents. Yet we manage to take care of autistic babies, and downs-syndrome babies and severely physically handicapped babies. I don’t see this as being any different. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/43 "2013-01-23T17:12:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s just another reproductive technique. A better question is “why not”? What is it about a cloned person that is “bad”? Happens IRL all the time. > > People were deathly afraid of the stigma a test tube baby would have to endure, but no one bats an eye now. No we do not clone humans with technology as a reproductive technique. Natural twinning is not a reproductive technique. And compared to that somewhat questionable potential technology there are other issues - the Neandertal individual would without question have a future with more potential for major problems. We have no idea what language capacity there is and how well (s)he could adapt to the needs of the modern world, even without dealing with the attitudes of others to him/her. If someone wants a child there is no need to intentionally impose those issues on that child. So both known and unknown risks of suffering placed upon that child that a sapiens child would not have to face. With what ethical justification? That is, with what reason why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/44 "2013-01-23T17:13:13Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The trouble is a Neanderthal might be fairly inept by human standards. What if they can’t deal with modern human language or learn how to read? What if they have huge impulse control problems by modern human standards? They aren’t physically the same as us, and a male might be superhumanly strong. > > I don’t think you can promise that he or she would be able to function in modern human society. Which would mean warehousing for life. I don’t think that’s ethical. > > It might be more ethical if you create a breeding population and put them on an island somewhere. Raise them with humans for the first generation and then leave them be. > > Maybe come back a hundred years later and see what’s what. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? 🙂 I think your scenario would be much more unethical as there is no way to know that they would survive on “an island”. Imagine doing that to modern human clones. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/45 "2013-01-23T17:15:39Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > You can’t promise that human babies will be able to function in modern human society. Especially when they’re born to older parents. Yet we manage to take care of autistic babies, and downs-syndrome babies and severely physically handicapped babies. I don’t see this as being any different. Would it be ethical to intentionally go out of your way to make sure you were giviing birth to an severely autistic or otherwise severely handicapped baby just to see what they’d be like? The issue is inceasing the risks to the child by choice, to satisfy our curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/46 "2013-01-23T17:20:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? 🙂 > > I think your scenario would be much more unethical as there is no way to know that they would survive on “an island”. Imagine doing that to modern human clones. That scenario is far more unethical, is it’s excluding the Neanderthals from the protections of and participation in society, based purely on their status as a subspecies. That is far worse than using our existing systems to deal with those that cannot look after themselves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/47 "2013-01-23T17:21:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No we do not clone humans with technology as a reproductive technique. Neither was _in virto_ until a few years ago. Offering up the fact that we don’t do something as a reason not to do it in the future is not really a compelling argument. > [@DSeid](#): > > Natural twinning is not a reproductive technique. But it produces the same result. > [@](#): > > And compared to that somewhat questionable potential technology there are other issues - the Neandertal individual would without question have a future with more potential for major problems. We have no idea what language capacity there is and how well (s)he could adapt to the needs of the modern world, even without dealing with the attitudes of others to him/her. If someone wants a child there is no need to intentionally impose those issues on that child. > > So both known and unknown risks of suffering placed upon that child that a sapiens child would not have to face. With what ethical justification? That is, with what reason why? I think a human clone would have no more stigma than an _in vitro_ child, which is to say none. Louise Brown is doing just fine. Every time we reproduce there are risks. There are any number of people who have high risks of producing a child with all sorts of developmental problems, and yet we don’t forbid them from reproducing. I don’t see any real problems associate with the Neanderthal. If anything, he’d be a celebrity! If there are ethical risks, they might be more along the lines of potential diseases a Neanderthal could introduce to us. I think we’d have more to fear form him than he from us. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/48 "2013-01-23T17:22:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Would it be ethical to intentionally go out of your way to make sure you were giving birth to an severely autistic or otherwise severely handicapped baby just to see what they’d be like? No, but that’s not really relevant. We don’t know that the Neadnertal would have any sort of mental or physical deficit compared to moderns. A more relevant question would be whether its ethical to risk an increased _chance_ of a child being handicapped. But people take such risks all the time by waiting till their thirties or forties to have kids. Or having kids when they know they carry genes that carry increased risks for handicaps. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/49 "2013-01-23T17:23:05Z")
Before there’s any thought of cloning a Neandertal baby, we’ll have lots of experience with everyday cloning of modern humans. All the hysteria and misconceptions about cloning will be cleared up when people realize that cloned babies are human babies like any other baby, who just happen to have much older identical twins. So the cloning part won’t need to be addressed. The biggest problem is finding intact nuclear DNA from a Neandertal. That isn’t as easy as it sounds, you know. So long before anyone tries to clone a Neandertal there will have been lots of such experiments reviving species that have a much greater likelihood of success, species that have only been extinct for a few decades and have carefully preserved tissue samples and extant modern relatives to be the somatic egg donors and gestational mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/50 "2013-01-23T17:23:18Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No we do not clone humans with technology as a reproductive technique. Natural twinning is not a reproductive technique. The result is the same: cloning. Why does it matter that technology was involved? > [@DSeid](#): > > And compared to that somewhat questionable potential technology there are other issues - the Neandertal individual would without question have a future with more potential for major problems. We have no idea what language capacity there is and how well (s)he could adapt to the needs of the modern world, even without dealing with the attitudes of others to him/her. If someone wants a child there is no need to intentionally impose those issues on that child. > > So both known and unknown risks of suffering placed upon that child that a sapiens child would not have to face. With what ethical justification? That is, with what reason why? > [@DSeid](#): > > Would it be ethical to intentionally go out of your way to make sure you were giviing birth to an severely autistic or otherwise severely handicapped baby just to see what they’d be like? The issue is inceasing the risks to the child by choice, to satisfy our curiosity. I don’t think you’re giving Neanderthals enough credit as intelligent beings. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/51 "2013-01-23T17:26:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So the cloning part won’t need to be addressed. The biggest problem is finding intact nuclear DNA from a Neandertal. That isn’t as easy as it sounds, you know. So long before anyone tries to clone a Neandertal there will have been lots of such experiments reviving species that have a much greater likelihood of success, species that have only been extinct for a few decades and have carefully preserved tissue samples and extant modern relatives to be the somatic egg donors and gestational mothers. Or, we modify modern human DNA to produce a Neanderthal based on what we know about their DNA sequence. I suspect that is more realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/52 "2013-01-23T17:29:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The biggest problem is finding intact nuclear DNA from a Neandertal. That isn’t as easy as it sounds, you know. [I believe its pretty close to having been done already](http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/53 "2013-01-23T17:32:47Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > You can’t promise that human babies will be able to function in modern human society. Especially when they’re born to older parents. Yet we manage to take care of autistic babies, and downs-syndrome babies and severely physically handicapped babies. I don’t see this as being any different. People with Down syndrome are human. They look human. A Neanderthal might look completely unlike any modern human. If he can’t use speech, you’re dooming him to a life in a facility. As an aside, I don’t think you should clone people with profound developmental disorders either. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/54 "2013-01-23T17:35:54Z")
[Previous poll on the subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=561626) In that, after some pondering, I was tentatively in favour but with conditions put on the endeavour; > [@me](#): > > I think it’d initially have to be some sort of ‘Truman Show’ style protected environment, however cruel that might seem - seeing as how we now very, very little about their drives and reactions, emotionally speaking. Allowing them to mingle freely straight away could lead to disaster for us and them. > > I think it’s more ethical to clone a few if we could, rather than just one - then at least he isn’t completely alone. > > The question of intelligence is still the most crucial one, and the most important think we could learn about them. People have a view of them as stupid cavemen, but 30,000 years ago humanity wasn’t doing much better. They had a brain capacity potentially larger than modern humans. With a modern education and today’s technology they might end up as super-geniuses by our standards, we have no idea. Which raises further implications, if they’re more intelligent than us it would rock our very world view - entire religions are build on the assumption that we are the top dog with dominion over all other living things. Their potential could be even greater than our own. I clarify more in the linked thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/55 "2013-01-23T17:37:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That scenario is far more unethical, is it’s excluding the Neanderthals from the protections of and participation in society, based purely on their status as a subspecies. That is far worse than using our existing systems to deal with those that cannot look after themselves. Do you think they’re ours to nursemaid? They’re a race of men that aren’t us. I’d think they deserve to build the society they’d want to, not try to fit into our society that may never work for them. If they can’t speak or fit into our society they’d be much better off forming a society of their own than being unable to function in ours. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/56 "2013-01-23T17:38:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > People with Down syndrome are human. They look human. A Neanderthal might look completely unlike any modern human. If he can’t use speech, you’re dooming him to a life in a facility. > > As an aside, I don’t think you should clone people with profound developmental disorders either. Why couldn’t he [use speech?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_behavior#Language) > [@](#): > > There is some circumstantial evidence for thinking that Neanderthals had language with words and some kind of syntax; some of their tool-making and hunting tactics would have been difficult to learn and execute without it. A recent extraction of DNA from Neanderthal bones indicates that Neanderthals had the same version of the FOXP2 gene as modern humans. This gene is known to play a role in human language. > > The idea that Neanderthals lacked complex language was once widespread, despite concerns about the accuracy of reconstructions of the Neanderthal vocal tract, until 1983, when a Neanderthal hyoid bone was found at the Kebara Cave in Israel. The hyoid is a small bone that connects the musculature of the tongue and the larynx, and by bracing these structures against each other, allows a wider range of tongue and laryngeal movements than would otherwise have been possible. The presence of this bone implies that structured speech was anatomically possible and that the repertory of sounds that might be produced was wide enough to contain well-defined sets of phonemes, and not simply inarticulate guttural grunts. The bone found is virtually identical to that of modern humans. > > The morphology of the outer and middle ear of Neanderthal ancestors, Homo heidelbergensis, found in Spain, suggests they had an auditory sensitivity similar to modern humans and very different from chimpanzees. They were probably able to differentiate between many different sounds. > > Neurological evidence for potential speech in neanderthalensis may exist in the form of the hypoglossal canal. The canal of neanderthalensis is the same size or larger than in modern humans, which is significantly larger than the canal of australopithecines and modern chimpanzees. The canal carries the hypoglossal nerve, which controls the muscles of the tongue. This suggests to some theorists that neanderthalensis had vocal capabilities similar to modern humans. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/57 "2013-01-23T17:42:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you think they’re ours to nursemaid? In that those who can’t care for themselves are the responsibility of society at large, yes. Though I don’t think Neanderthals would qualify on that basis. > [@Lobohan](#): > > They’re a race of men that aren’t us. I’d think they deserve to build the society they’d want to, not try to fit into our society that may never work for them. > > If they can’t speak or fit into our society they’d be much better off forming a society of their own than being unable to function in ours. Excluded middle: a society where they fit in doesn’t require abandoning them on an island to fend for themselves in the brutality of nature! That’s the cruelist possible way to achieve that end. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/58 "2013-01-23T17:44:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Why couldn’t he [use speech?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_behavior#Language) Reread that. It isn’t saying they definitely had speech. It’s saying that they might, maybe have had speech. I’m saying if it turns out that they don’t, it’s shitty. Like I say, if you’re gonna clone someone to live in our society and it turns out they can’t speak, read and look like a monster, you’ve done a very evil thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/59 "2013-01-23T17:47:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In that those who can’t care for themselves are the responsibility of society at large, yes. Though I don’t think Neanderthals would qualify on that basis. We care for people who have ended up unable to care for themselves. We don’t generate them on purpose. > [@](#): > > Excluded middle: a society where they fit in doesn’t require abandoning them on an island to fend for themselves in the brutality of nature! That’s the cruelist possible way to achieve that end. I’m not necessarily for complete abandonment. I’d be okay with some monitoring. Vaccines and whatnot. But if you’re going to make some, and it turns out that they can’t fit with us, you need to make enough that they can build something together. And I’m guessing you’ve never lived on an island, I’m from Hawaii, and trust me, that’s the least brutal nature on this planet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/60 "2013-01-23T17:49:52Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > [I believe its pretty close to having been done already](http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/). No. The sequencing was not done with “intact” DNA, meaning non-fragmented. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098.md?page=4)