# Cloning a Neandertal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098 "2013-01-23T13:29:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/121 "2013-01-23T22:14:01Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > It’s not at all clear whether they would be dumber, the same, or smarter than we are. Right, so we should be prepared for any outcome. And not just for intelligence–their temperament and motivations are at least as open to speculation. > [@Learjeff](#): > > > [@Peremensoe](#): > > > > To be effective, this would mean a complete package of protected territory, flora and fauna suitable to support their ancient mode of existence, and the requisite knowledge sets. So at least some of the first generation’s modern-human parents would have to be engaged in teaching Pleistocene-like survival skills. > > Practically speaking, this is either impossible or too arbitrary. First, let me say I agree with your intent; I’m just quibbling on a minor point: the assumption that there is a “natural state” for the species, and that we could recreate it to some degree of reasonable accuracy. > > If accuracy isn’t important, then why is it important to recreate a pleistocene scenario? There _are_ current projects like [Pleistocene Park](http://www.pleistocenepark.ru/en/) and the [Rewilding Europe areas](http://www.rewildingeurope.com/areas/), undertaken for their own reasons, without human habitation. There is plenty of room to critique their ‘accuracy.’ But while one such location might be adapted to serve the needs of a New Neanderthal project, I’m talking about something rather different in motivation. Not a museum-piece recreation, nor a quasi-mystical notion of how Neanderthals ‘should’ live, I mean simply an environment and lifestyle within the range of what we _know_ Neanderthals can handle. And which, given the alternative of living as a microscopic minority in the modern world (or as pathetic, boxed-in dependents), they might just prefer. I’m still addressing the OP question of what the _ethical_ approach to such a project would be. I think we would owe it to them to give them the option of a world and life no worse than (if not precisely the same as) that of their forefathers. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/122 "2013-01-23T22:27:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you’d be OK with cloning a 40k year old Cro Magnon person, I can’t see any reason that cloning a Neanderthal would be significantly different. As I noted above, the more ethical problem arises with more primitive human ancestors, like _H. erectus_ or _H. habilis_, which probably would have problems living in a modern society, but would we feel comfortable putting them in a zoo? We don’t know enough about how different the innate behavior of Neanderthals is from moderns. We don’t really even know much about “innate” behavior of moderns, and it’s hard to define, but the _differences_ would be easier to study. that’s a reason _to_ do this, as well as a reason not to. I question the ethics of cloning a 40Kyo modern, but I think we have a better idea that the differences in behavior would be minimal in this case. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wouldn’t worry about that. We’ve cloned animals with mtDNA from a different Genus. Thanks! I didn’t know. Odd that mtDNA can be incompatible between individuals of the same species, but compatible across genera. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There is a big difference between in-vitro fertilization and cloning. > > Like what? In one case, it’s a genetic duplicate. In the other, it’s not. I consider that an enormous difference. If it happens randomly for a few individuals, then there are no significant consequences. The problem is when you deviate from that. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > There _are_ current projects like [Pleistocene Park](http://www.pleistocenepark.ru/en/) and the [Rewilding Europe areas](http://www.rewildingeurope.com/areas/), undertaken for their own reasons, without human habitation. There is plenty of room to critique their ‘accuracy.’ Recreating the environment is far less significant than recreating the culture. Of course, the two are intertwined, but I grant that we can duplicate the environment well enough, if we knew enough about the culture. We don’t. We don’t even know enough about any existing human cultures to “duplicate” one. We just use them and let children grow up in them. Ones that are lost tend to be lost for good (but admittedly, usually for more reasons than simply that we just can’t.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/123 "2013-01-23T22:30:16Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think we would owe it to them to give them the option of a world and life no worse than (if not precisely the same as) that of their forefathers. I agree, but I think we can do a lot better than that- I think the fossil evidence tells us that life for most Neanderthal’s was nasty, brutish, and short. Whatever environment any hypothetical Neanderthal infant is raised will seem like home to him/her- whether it’s a high-rise in Shanghai, a favela in urban Brazil, or a small town in rural Norway (which might look a lot more like their ancestors’ environment). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/124 "2013-01-23T23:00:06Z")
How many are you going to clone? Isn’t it unethical to clone one without cloning a potential mate? Wouldn’t you be sentencing the clone to a lonely existence? And even cloning a single mate might not solve the problem. What if Clone A rejects Clone B as a mate (the “Bride of Frankenstein” problem)? What if you wind up with a super-strong, but sexually frustrated male Neanderthal? Are you going to set him loose in our society? I am astonished by the posters who say they don’t see any ethical issues with cloning a Neanderthal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/125 "2013-01-23T23:06:41Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > We don’t know enough about how different the innate behavior of Neanderthals is from moderns. We don’t really even know much about “innate” behavior of moderns, and it’s hard to define, but the _differences_ would be easier to study. that’s a reason _to_ do this, as well as a reason not to. I question the ethics of cloning a 40Kyo modern, but I think we have a better idea that the differences in behavior would be minimal in this case. It’s unlikely that there would be a significant difference in 'innate" behavior. Much of human behavior depends on socialization anyway. > [@](#): > > In one case, it’s a genetic duplicate. In the other, it’s not. I consider that an enormous difference. If it happens randomly for a few individuals, then there are no significant consequences. The problem is when you deviate from that. What problem? We know that identical twins, triplets and quadruplets exist. What “consequences” would there be if there were 10x as many twins? The existence of more clones doesn’t reduce the genetic variability of our species as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/126 "2013-01-23T23:08:34Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > How many are you going to clone? Isn’t it unethical to clone one without cloning a potential mate? Wouldn’t you be sentencing the clone to a lonely existence? And even cloning a single mate might not solve the problem. What if Clone A rejects Clone B as a mate (the “Bride of Frankenstein” problem)? > > What if you wind up with a super-strong, but sexually frustrated male Neanderthal? Are you going to set him loose in our society? > > I am astonished by the posters who say they don’t see any ethical issues with cloning a Neanderthal. He or she wouldn’t need a Neanderthal as a mate. They can mate with us. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/127 "2013-01-23T23:19:36Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > How many are you going to clone? Isn’t it unethical to clone one without cloning a potential mate? Wouldn’t you be sentencing the clone to a lonely existence? And even cloning a single mate might not solve the problem. What if Clone A rejects Clone B as a mate (the “Bride of Frankenstein” problem)? > > What if you wind up with a super-strong, but sexually frustrated male Neanderthal? Are you going to set him loose in our society? > > I am astonished by the posters who say they don’t see any ethical issues with cloning a Neanderthal. First, what **John Mace** said, and second, most of us have suggested we would have a “first generation” of about 10 or so Neanderthal babies. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/128 "2013-01-23T23:19:40Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > We don’t even know enough about any existing human cultures to “duplicate” one. We just use them and let children grow up in them. Ones that are lost tend to be lost for good… I agree; duplicating authentic Old Neanderthal culture is a non-starter. The New Neanderthals would have to make their own, out of what we provide for them _plus_ their innate nature… whatever that turns out to be. > [@Learjeff](#): > > We don’t know enough about how different the innate behavior of Neanderthals is from moderns. We don’t really even know much about “innate” behavior of moderns, and it’s hard to define, but the _differences_ would be easier to study. that’s a reason _to_ do this… Exactly. That’s why the challenge, the goal, should initially be to keep the NNs’ options as wide-open as possible. Let’s see what they can do, and want to do, unfettered from the circumstances of their Old incarnation. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Peremensoe](#): > > > > I think we would owe it to them to give them the option of a world and life no worse than (if not precisely the same as) that of their forefathers. > > I agree, but I think we can do a lot better than that- I think the fossil evidence tells us that life for most Neanderthal’s was nasty, brutish, and short. Whatever environment any hypothetical Neanderthal infant is raised will seem like home to him/her- whether it’s a high-rise in Shanghai, a favela in urban Brazil, or a small town in rural Norway (which might look a lot more like their ancestors’ environment). We certainly wouldn’t let them die from treatable maladies in childhood, for starters. I definitely think it would be very wrong to raise them substantially apart from each other, as separate adoptees into modern households and communities. At least initially, their modern parents must go into the place we make for the NN, not the other way round. In my vision, that “Pleistocene-like” skill set would just be the _floor_ for their cultural knowledge. They’d be welcome to as much beyond that as they could, or wished to, embrace. If, by reason of capacity _or_ inclination, NNs prove unsuited to adult lives integrated into the wider modern world, they must have an alternative, with the dignity and self-determination that all peoples deserve. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/129 "2013-01-23T23:25:52Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I definitely think it would be very wrong to raise them substantially apart from each other, as separate adoptees into modern households and communities. At least initially, their modern parents must go into the place we make for the NN, not the other way round. I agree- but they could all live in the same apartment building/neighborhood/etc, raised as an extended family (with different parents), or something like that. I don’t see the need for a separate facility- at least not immediately. As strong as they might be, an infant is not going to be dangerous to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/130 "2013-01-24T00:18:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would think mostly that they might hurt other children. They have linebacker necks and stronger grips. Maybe the NFL should be sponsoring this experiment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/131 "2013-01-24T00:22:41Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe the NFL should be sponsoring this experiment. Nah, Geico. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/132 "2013-01-24T00:27:10Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe the NFL should be sponsoring this experiment. I didn’t think about anything like that _at all_… what if it turns out the physical differences are large enough that Neanderthals could dominate every strength-based sport (imagine a trained Neanderthal MMA fighter!)? That might introduce some unfortunate financial incentives for cloning. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/133 "2013-01-24T00:29:12Z")
A group of ten neanderthals wouldn’t be a breeding population. If neanderthals lived in groups of ten, they almost certainly cross-bred with other groups of ten nearby in order to maintain their diversity. We’d have to clone hundreds. Perhaps we could get round this by periodically implanting a new, unrelated clone in the womb of one of the mothers; but this might raise ethical problems by itself. What would be the social result of unexplained virgin births in a tiny close-knit population? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/134 "2013-01-24T00:36:37Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > A group of ten neanderthals wouldn’t be a breeding population. If neanderthals lived in groups of ten, they almost certainly cross-bred with other groups of ten nearby in order to maintain their diversity. We’d have to clone hundreds. > > Perhaps we could get round this by periodically implanting a new, unrelated clone in the womb of one of the mothers; but this might raise ethical problems by itself. What would be the social result of unexplained virgin births in a tiny close-knit population? Even with a thousand or more, there’s no guarantee they would choose to breed with each other, assuming we’re treating them as people with the same rights as us. I don’t think this would be the goal of the research, anyway- I think the goal would be to better understand the anatomy, behavior, and cognition of our close cousins, the Neanderthals. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/135 "2013-01-24T02:33:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He or she wouldn’t need a Neanderthal as a mate. They can mate with us. Problem solved. Yes, I’m sure modern humans would be champing at the bit to get hitched to Neanderthals. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/136 "2013-01-24T02:35:31Z")
If this technique becomes available, I doubt we could restrict the population to a few tens or hundreds. We’d have to accept that we would have a population of neaderthals for keeps; the same with any cloned mammoth or woolly rhinos, moa or giant sloth that are created. No species need become extinct ever again. On the other hand, the process of reproducing extinct animals is really tricky, even with good material to work with. See this attempt with the Pyrenean ibex; > **[Pyrenean ibex | Cloning project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenean_ibex#Cloning_project)** > > Celia, the last ibex, was captured in Ordesa y Monte Perdido National Park in Huesca, Spain; skin biopsies were taken and cryopreserved in nitrogen. She died a year after tissue was harvested from her ear. The American biotechnology company Advanced Cell Technology, Inc. announced in 2000 that the Spanish government would let them try to clone her from those samples. ACT intended to work alongside other scientists to clone Celia by nuclear transfer. > It was expected to be easier than the cloning ... > [@](#): > > Of the 285 embryos reconstructed, 54 were transferred to 12 mountain goat and mountain goat-domesticated goat hybrids, but only two survived the initial two months of gestation before they too died. In 2009, one clone was born alive, but died seven minutes later, due to physical defects in the lungs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/137 "2013-01-24T03:59:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Cro Magnons were _Homo sapiens sapiens_. They were anatomically and behaviorally modern humans. > > As for the Neandertal being a ward of the state, first we’d have to establish that the Neandertal wasn’t capable of living independently. But even so, why wouldn’t the Neandertal’s parents be their guardian? Every baby created by modern fertility techniques has a legal father and a legal mother, even if the baby is created by different sperm, different eggs, or gestates in a different womb. > > So if a Neandertal baby is created it would have to have legal parents. If some unethical researcher created a Neandertal baby as a lab rat, then the state should treat that baby like any other orphan or foundling or child with unfit parents, put the baby in foster care, and find adoptive parents for them. sperm donors have legal rights? a woman renting her womb for another couple has legal rights? I see a scenario where a Neandertal is the domain of a scientist who contractually holds all the parental rights. It would essentially make such a creature a lab rat. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/138 "2013-01-24T05:25:45Z")
The reality is, if there ever came a time when this was possible to do, the parents of the Neandertal baby are bound to be scientists, not random passersby. That doesn’t make the baby a lab rat, any more than any other child. Parents have children every day for selfish reasons. If those parents are horrible enough, we terminate parental rights for those parents and society places the child in a new home. We give parents broad latitude in how they choose to care for their children, but children are not slaves or property. Of course, this isn’t going to happen as a one-off mad scientist type experiment. It would require a team of specialists. If the project leader is a psychopath who wants to create the baby to be a slave, the other members of the project aren’t going to cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/139 "2013-01-24T05:39:23Z")
All this presupposes what is born is human. we’ve had a couple years of evolution since Neandertals disappeared. We don’t know if they have the same mental capacity of today’s human. Imagine a world full of politicians or reality show producers. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/140 "2013-01-24T05:40:18Z")
As for the notion that we’d be obligated to provide the children with a paleolithic lifestyle, that’s simply nonsense. Modern _Homo sapiens sapiens_ children evolved for a paleolithic lifestyle, but we don’t feel like we need to teach them the life of a paleolithic hunter. The obvious parallel are the various gorillas and orangutans and chimpanzees that have been raised by human beings and fit in, however imperfectly, to our modern world. Koko the gorilla has different needs than a human, but she doesn’t need a simulated African rainforest to be happy, she needs space, she needs quiet, she needs food, she needs a social life, she needs intellectual challenges appropriate for her, and so on. Of course we can expect that a neandertal child is going to have different social and environmental needs than a Hss child. But if we can provide for the social and intellectual needs of a gorilla or orangutan child, we can provide for a neadertal child. That doesn’t mean teaching them flint knapping and tracking, it means making sure they have enough peace and quiet, they might need more than a Hss child. It means they might need more space to run and climb and roughhouse than a Hss child. They might need more gentleness, or more toughness. Or, more likely, every neandertal child will have individual needs just like every modern human is different, and every gorilla is different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098.md?page=8)