# Cloning a Neandertal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098 "2013-01-23T13:29:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/161 "2013-01-24T18:45:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well it’s just common sense that being the only one in your species would make you a public oddity. There are plenty of people for whom the circumstances of their birth make them somewhat strange to other people, and yet live perfectly happy lives. Its far from obvious that our hypothetical Neanderthal wouldn’t be happy, even if he stood out in a crowd. > [@](#): > > But using your “you don’t know that” line of thinking what right do you have as a scientist to play that card. What card? My point is that a clone of **Inner Stickler** raised in a Neanderthal society would be much different then the “real” Stickler, and that he doesn’t really know what would make clone **Stickler** happy. I suspect that a human raised in a Neanderthal society would be happier there then he would be if he were somehow magically transported to a human society. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/162 "2013-01-24T18:54:01Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I suspect that a human raised in a Neanderthal society would be happier there then he would be if he were somehow magically transported to a human society. What if she looked like Daryl Hannah? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/163 "2013-01-24T18:55:01Z")
You don’t think the knowledge that you are the only one ‘of your kind’ so to speak and that you were created out of some other species need to satiate their curiosity wouldn’t be fundamentally depressing and lonely? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/164 "2013-01-24T18:59:29Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You don’t think the knowledge that you are the only one ‘of your kind’ so to speak and that you were created out of some other species need to satiate their curiosity wouldn’t be fundamentally depressing and lonely? I don’t think it would be anymore depressing and lonely then hundreds of other circumstances that regular people deal with. Millions of orphans live with the rather depressing thought that their birth-parents didn’t want to keep them. Some do fixate on that and get really down, but most deal with it fine. There’s no guarantee that any child will grow up to be happy. But I don’t think a Neandertal child is any less likely to be happy then regular humans. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/165 "2013-01-24T18:59:55Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You don’t think the knowledge that you are the only one ‘of your kind’ so to speak and that you were created out of some other species need to satiate their curiosity wouldn’t be fundamentally depressing and lonely? To avoid this possibility, we could clone a small group together (perhaps about 10), and raise them together. Then they’re not alone. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/166 "2013-01-24T19:17:43Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Why do you assume that the cloned neanderthal could only be a hunter/gatherer? We were only hunters and gatherers back then too. Raised as a human, and with the access to our education systems, he could likely learn any number of trades/professions. I don’t. But one of the fallback positions people have been using in this debate is that if the cloned Neanderthals couldn’t fit into modern _Homo sapiens sapiens_ society, we could give them a place to live similar to what they dwelt in before their species became extinct, and let them develop their own society there. I’m saying that’s really not an option any more. Living alongside us would be their only realistic option. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/167 "2013-01-24T19:56:57Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There seem to be three possible ways to raise them that always seem to exist in science fictional treatments of this. One, treat them exactly like a modern human and then act all surprised when the turn out differently. Two, treat them like a lab rat or zoo animal, and then act all surprised when they have human needs and human emotions. Three, drop them off naked in Montana so they can live their lives as they please and then act all surprised when they starve to death. > > Except none of these make any sense. I agree, absolutely. > [@Lemur866](#): > > If an adult Neandertal fell through a wormhole into modern times, then it would probably be the case that he couldn’t be happy except as a hunter-gatherer. Same thing as if an adult hunter-gatherer from the Amazon basin fell through a wormhole and ended up in Manhattan. But if a baby from the Amazon basin ends up in foster care in New York, that baby will grow up just fine. Of course, a Neandertal baby can’t be raised exactly the same way a modern human baby could be. But it won’t be an automaton that could only replicate the exact way of life Neandertals lived 50,000 years ago any more than a gorilla or a chimp is an automaton that can only replicate life in the jungle. I agree, as far as stated. But… am I to understand that you _are_ advocating raising them in a wholly modern culture, albeit with some unspecified allowances for their as-yet unknown nature? Isn’t that putting a rather enormous amount of faith in our ability to rapidly identify what allowances are necessary, and successfully implement them, within single growth-to-adulthood spans, to yield people capable of living happily in a modern culture? No, I really think there would have to be some kind of floor for their adult lives that recognized their humanity without _requiring_ us to succeed in any particular degree of integration. > [@artemis](#): > > The problem is, we can’t realistically provide that environment, not long term and certainly not for an expanding population. There’s simply no _room_ on the planet for hunter-gatherer societies any more; we farmer-types have crowded them out completely. All that’s left of the “natural” pre-farming world is carefully set-aside areas of parkland. How many hunter-gatherers could Rocky Mountain National Park or Glacier National Park (or their equivalent areas in Europe) support long-term? > > The old Neanderthal habitat is occupied now - by us. If the cloned Neanderthals couldn’t comfortably coexist in our modern society, there’s really no place left for them to go. I think you are overstating this. Of course there are active hunter-gatherer societies on the planet now, in regions that are marginal in various ways for agriculture. One repurposed parkland or “rewilded” area should indeed be adequate territory for the first several generations of a New Neanderthal HG clan. If they do then multiply, [the burden on the land does not increase linearly](http://persquaremile.com/2011/08/17/hunter-gatherer-populations-show-humans-are-hardwired-for-density/), and increased density itself fosters diversification. > [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Why do you assume that the cloned neanderthal could only be a hunter/gatherer? I don’t, either. With the knowledge of the existence of the modern world, and the availability of _its_ knowledge, I would certainly _expect_ NNs to do much more than emulate their forefathers (and they might never need HG as a primary strategy). I just don’t think it’s responsible to assume that they will do so to _such_ a degree, within a single generation, that no special provision for their continuing existence is required. Also, entirely apart from the question of their capacity for life in a modern society, I think it is quite likely that they would recognize themselves as a people apart. If we bring this most distant ethnicity into our world, would we not owe them a homeland of some sort? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/168 "2013-01-24T20:05:38Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Also, entirely apart from the question of their capacity for life in a modern society, I think it is quite likely that they would recognize themselves as a people apart. If we bring this most distant ethnicity into our world, would we not owe them a homeland of some sort? Yeah, perhaps we could find them a nice, undisputed parcel of land in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/169 "2013-01-24T20:14:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, perhaps we could find them a nice, undisputed parcel of land in the Middle East. They did settle it first. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/170 "2013-01-24T20:14:59Z")
I’m thinking a little piece of Russian taiga is more practical. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/171 "2013-01-24T20:15:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But does my other proposed justification make sense to anyone? IF we believe that we, as a species, had committed genocide against the Neandertal species back in the day, do we have an ethical obligation to bring them, Abel to our Cain, back if we can? As _part_ of reparations for our species’ past crimes? Maybe our ancestors had good reasons. Maybe Neanderthals are genetically predisposed to be assholes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/172 "2013-01-24T20:25:27Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > They did settle it first. Exactly. And no one would dream of challenging that, either. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/173 "2013-01-24T21:08:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, perhaps we could find them a nice, undisputed parcel of land in the Middle East. A good test for the clone army. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/174 "2013-01-24T21:12:14Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Maybe our ancestors had good reasons. Maybe Neanderthals are genetically predisposed to be assholes. Good idea. Perhaps they took their cell phone into movie theaters. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/175 "2013-01-24T22:50:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This has been in the news lately. Assuming it becomes technically feasible, is it ethical to clone a Neandertal (or a group of Neandertals) to be raised to adulthood? Ultimately, criteria for what is “ethical” are dependent on an artificial paradigm. Absolutes (based, for example, on religious heritages) have gone the way of archaic humans. I suggest the following litmus test to decide if cloning a Neandertal is at least internally consistent with your own ethical paradigm: Would you euthanize such a being for the same reasons you would euthanize a non-human, or would you want to apply whatever standard you have for euthanizing humans? Neandertals are probably quite close to anatomically modern humans. It’s difficult for me to protest the ethics of creating (any) contented being; but difficult to support the ethics of creating a miserable being. Higher intellect enables misery roughly in proportion to how highly the brain functions. That’s why it’s tougher to use chimps or dogs rather than rats in the lab; tougher to use rats than drosophila. For me, there is a high risk that a cloned Neandertal would have to be confined and managed in some way (particularly if the whole point of the experiment is to see what they are like), and such confinement raises the chance these created Neandertals would be discontent. Turning such an individual loose in the wild would be cruel as well, of course. If it turned out they were truly miserable, the real ethical dilemma would be, “Hey, do we put him down?” And I’m not sure I could support that. They might be very close to modern humans. It would be like euthanizing my odd cousin. Since I cannot predict whether or not the Neandertal would be miserable, for me it’s unethical to create him because my ethical paradigm does not support euthanizing miserable humans (not even iiandyiiii or Orcenio 😉 ) (I’m OK with humans euthanizing themselves, but I’m not able to predict the Neandertal would be able to do that.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/176 "2013-01-24T22:52:57Z")
How can we predict if our own children will be miserable or not? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/177 "2013-01-25T19:13:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How can we predict if our own children will be miserable or not? I polled some kids from my neighborhood, and it turns out it’s simple: Do we have enough money to buy them happiness? If not, we should not be pro-creating. It’s been proven over and over: Parents who think money cannot buy happiness do not know where to shop. 😃 Also: (Within my personal ethical paradigm) I can more reasonably predict–and even control, to some extent–how likely my own children are to have a shot at being unmiserable–yea; even happy. I don’t think it’s ethical to bring children into the world with known profound limitations. I’m underwhelmed that carrying a microcephalic child to birth somehow shows a “respect for life.” Ditto for many other forseeable genetic abnormalities. I don’t think it’s ethical to bring children into the world if I cannot reasonably provide for them. I get it that life is a crapshoot, but at a bare minimum I can reasonably foresee and ability to provide for and nurture my own children. I can try to provide for many unexpected eventualities, within reason. I have a reasonable ability to figure out to what extent I can parent them, nurture them, and deliver them into a functioning adulthood. If I can’t do that, I don’t think it’s ethical to have children. A cloned Neandertal is a laboratory experiment. It may be human, but it’s not anyone’s child. Now if the first dozen turn out to be great, and they are just one more adorable, adoptable kid, I guess I’d change my opinion. But it’s the ethics of that first one that seems to give me the greatest pause. Would I be willing to euthanize it if I had created an odd human who was suffering greatly? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/178 "2013-01-25T21:16:43Z")
Have we discussed the likelihood that a Neanderthal will have no immunity to modern diseases? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/179 "2013-01-25T21:25:08Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Have we discussed the likelihood that a Neanderthal will have no immunity to modern diseases? Would he did acquire immunity from his Mother? Hey, I paid good money not to worry about baby stuff…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098/180 "2013-01-25T21:27:45Z")
**CP** : I’m just going to agree to disagree on that point. We’ve raised countless non-sapiens animals among us, and we pretty much know how to make them “not miserable”. It’s one thing to say that if were able to pluck a full-grown Neanderthal out of his natural environment that he might be miserable living the life of a modern, but a Neanderthal raised thusly from birth? Extremely unlikely. > [@Spoke](#): > > Have we discussed the likelihood that a Neanderthal will have no immunity to modern diseases? That could be a big problem. He’d have to be fully immunized and watched very closely by doctors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cloning-a-neandertal/648098.md?page=10)