# Close the borders. CLOSE THE BORDERS! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760 "2004-04-01T17:06:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/21 "2004-04-02T23:43:02Z")
> [@HumptysHamhole](#): > > My plan would assure them at least a little more money and it would assure them payment for their services (would apply to the case above where the employer calls immigration to round up the workers before he has to pay them). I don’t understand what would prevent the business from paying another subset of immigrants, those who are still illegal because they don’t meet your requirements, an even lower wage. ---
**Author:** ![cichlidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@cichlidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cichlidiot)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/22 "2004-04-03T20:38:00Z")
> [@HumptysHamhole](#): > > I can agree with that and I think if we leagalized immigration (with the right plan) I would ascribe a minimum wage (lower than citizen minimum wage) to the immigrants until they became citizens. I see where you are going with this, and think it would at least be an improvement over what’s happening now. My point was to pay everyone the same living wage, regardless of status. If a farmer has to pay an immigrant the same wage as existing citizens, there’s not an incentive for him to (in my mind) screw people over. My main objection when this subject comes up, is that immigrant workers somehow work harder than people already living here. I’m sure that’s the case in some instances, but hardly an accurate generalization. I went to school with a lot of hard working, non-migrant workers, kids that were up all night with the smudge pots, who still managed to make it to school. Then back to working after school, to say nothing of what the adults in their family did. It’s hard work no matter the citizenship status, and I believe people should be payed a fair wage for that work, also regardless of status. ---
**Author:** ![rngadam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@rngadam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rngadam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/23 "2004-04-04T05:55:31Z")
I really find it strange that instead the US doesn’t crack down on the DEMAND instead of the offer; why not go after employers that hire those illegal immigrants in the first place and crack down hard? That would stop the flow… And probably those same employers would then pressure their politicians to make it easier for Mexicans to work _legally_ in the US once they realize they can’t f\*ck over poor people under the table without getting bitch slapped! I just don’t understand why the debate centers on the immigrants themselves… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/24 "2004-04-04T06:14:24Z")
> [@](#): > > why not go after employers Employers have more money for campaign contributions. In addition, the people who most want to wring their hands about immigration are the same people who want to portray themselves as supportive of business, so they cannot suggest additional “burdens” for businesses, such as checking documents for legitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/25 "2004-04-04T07:14:03Z")
It’s also easier from a legal standpoint to enforce the laws by going after the illegal immigrants. Being as they have no legal right to be in the country, they basically just have to identified and deported. Their employers, on the other hand, probably are US citizens which means trying to shut them down would require a full due process criminal trial. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/26 "2004-04-04T07:23:26Z")
> [@Jackknifed Juggernaut](#): > > I’m thinking about calling in to Michael Savage, armed with facts, and debunking his self-assigned raison d’etre. Don’t make a fool of yourself. This is never possible with _any_ radio show. He’ll change the subject, then dump you. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/27 "2004-04-04T07:38:54Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > You really think eminent domain is a _bad_ thing? [hijack]Not always. But it is increasingly used as a tool of [government and big business](http://reason.com/0302/fe.ss.wrecking.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/28 "2004-04-04T11:40:03Z")
I am against illegal immigration. The reality is that we are currently in an economy where there simply aren’t enough jobs to go around as companies continue to avail themselves of outsourcing, offshoring and reducing the need for labor through automation and productivity enhancement. If today’s trend continues, this situation will only worsen and many more of us will be without work in the not distant future. There are most certainly people who would do the work that illegal’s do, albeit at a somewhat higher wage. This of course, would result in higher prices for food, gardening, maid service, unskilled labor, etc., which is guaranteed to get most people upset. We want low prices and low taxes but also a full plate of government services that no one really wants to pay the full cost for. The sad fact is that we, as a country, take advantage of illegal immigrants in the same way our corporations take advantage of low cost labor in foreign countries. I find it hard to understand how someone working off the books, not paying taxes, has no health or car insurance, is driving illegally without a license, lives in overcrowded apartments and so on, is a good thing for us as a country. Rather than rediscovering the wheel, I’m going to point you to an article from someone who has put a lot of thought into this issue: > [@](#): > > **The Overwhelming of America** > Marty Nemko, Ph.D. > > I don’t fit the profile of someone who worries about uncontrolled immigration. My parents are immigrants, I know that immigrants of all races have contributed mightily to America, and I’m no American flag waver. I am ashamed, for example, of America’s international hubris, environmental callousness, obscene materialism, declining ethical standards, and unconscionable disparity between rich and poor. > > So, I never was particularly concerned about uncontrolled immigration. I was additionally reassured because the media was reporting research that found illegal immigration to be a net plus for the US. > > But occasionally, I saw some contradictory research and heard stories from my wife, Dr. Barbara Nemko, the Napa County Superintendent of Schools, about how challenging it is to meet the immigrant children’s learning and health needs while not shortchanging the other kids. > > So I decided to more thoroughly review the evidence on uncontrolled immigration’s effects. As a result, I have had to change my mind. I have come to the conclusion that the greatest threat to America is not terrorism, but uncontrolled immigration. > > Heretofore, the effects have not been readily apparent to many of us in the middle class, but that will almost assuredly change. > > [Full article](http://www.martynemko.com/pub/articles/Guestworker.shtm) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/29 "2004-04-04T14:01:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In addition, the people who most want to wring their hands about immigration are the same people who want to portray themselves as supportive of business, so they cannot suggest additional “burdens” for businesses, such as checking documents for legitimacy. Don’t forget that in addition, there are a couple dozen different documents that can prove a person’s legal authorization to work in the U.S. either temporarily or permanently. Most employers don’t know how to evaluate most of these documents, so they end up making mistakes which could cost them a lot of money in fines, even if they are honestly trying to comply. My office just did an immigration compliance audit of a very large and by-the-book employer, and I’d say that the majority of the documents (I-9 forms) we audited had at least one technical error in how they were completed. The older ones were even worse. And this is a company which would never knowingly hire someone who wasn’t authorized to work in the U.S. Unfortunately, what happens a lot of the time is that companies end up discriminating against anyone who appears foreign, on the theory that then at least they won’t have to worry about hiring people who aren’t legally authorized to work in the U.S. However, that’s just as illegal. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/30 "2004-04-04T15:17:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I am against illegal immigration. The reality is that we are currently in an economy where there simply aren’t enough jobs to go around as companies continue to avail themselves of outsourcing, offshoring and reducing the need for labor through automation and productivity enhancement. If today’s trend continues, this situation will only worsen and many more of us will be without work in the not distant future. Sending jobs offshore is _legal_ and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. Automation is (the last time I checked) _legal_ and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. H-1B visas are _legal_ (although a large number of companies that sponsor them are lying through their teeth to get them issued) and have nothing to do with illegal immigrants. None of these _legal_ activities that are having a negative effect on the ability of U.S. citizens to find work have anything to do with _illegal_ immigration. I will not claim that no illegals have secured jobs in the $7 - $10 an hour range that some citizen might have chosen, but the vast majority of the _illegal_ aliens are truly doing work for which companies could not find U.S. labor. That does not, in itself, make illegal alien labor right or wrong, but in a discussion of illegal labor, offshore outsourcing, automation, and legal immigration really has no bearing on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/31 "2004-04-04T19:02:07Z")
As Americans have become wealthier, they have become more educated and therefore do not want to do menial jobs any more. Since 1970, the number of Americans going to college has increased by 15%, and the dropout rate has decreased. This translates into a lot more people who are unwilling to work picking grapes, working as maids, and maintaining gardens. So, you have two choices - allow immigrants into the country who are willing to do these jobs, or suffer a job shortage with corresponding wage inflation and cost. Immigration is a good thing on many levels. One of the biggest good things is the stabilization of population demographics. You know that looming Social Security crisis that’s happening because the population is getting older and the ratio of workers to retirees is decreasing? Well, in countries that don’t have much immigration, it’s not just a problem - it’s a disaster. In 50 years the U.S. is going to have the youngest, healthiest population around. And that’s entirely due to the high immigration rate. If you ‘closed the borders’, the U.S. would be facing the same problem as Japan - a population crash, and a large retired class supported by a small number of workers. Bad news for Japan. You don’t want that to happen in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/32 "2004-04-04T20:40:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sending jobs offshore is _legal_ and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. > > Automation is (the last time I checked) _legal_ and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. > > H-1B visas are _legal_ (although a large number of companies that sponsor them are lying through their teeth to get them issued) and have nothing to do with illegal immigrants. > > None of these _legal_ activities that are having a negative effect on the ability of U.S. citizens to find work have anything to do with _illegal_ immigration. I will not claim that no illegals have secured jobs in the $7 - $10 an hour range that some citizen might have chosen, but the vast majority of the _illegal_ aliens are truly doing work for which companies could not find U.S. labor. > > That does not, in itself, make illegal alien labor right or wrong, but in a discussion of illegal labor, offshore outsourcing, automation, and legal immigration really has no bearing on the subject. Can you appear on Lou Dobbs’s show? Please, please… ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/33 "2004-04-04T23:01:34Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > As Americans have become wealthier, they have become more educated and therefore do not want to do menial jobs any more. > > Since 1970, the number of Americans going to college has increased by 15%, and the dropout rate has decreased. This translates into a lot more people who are unwilling to work picking grapes, working as maids, and maintaining gardens. > > So, you have two choices - allow immigrants into the country who are willing to do these jobs, or suffer a job shortage with corresponding wage inflation and cost. > > Immigration is a good thing on many levels. One of the biggest good things is the stabilization of population demographics. You know that looming Social Security crisis that’s happening because the population is getting older and the ratio of workers to retirees is decreasing? Well, in countries that don’t have much immigration, it’s not just a problem - it’s a disaster. In 50 years the U.S. is going to have the youngest, healthiest population around. And that’s entirely due to the high immigration rate. If you ‘closed the borders’, the U.S. would be facing the same problem as Japan - a population crash, and a large retired class supported by a small number of workers. Bad news for Japan. You don’t want that to happen in the U.S. So Sam, are you also planning to immigrate into our wonderful country from Canada? Instead of telling us about a country you don’t live in, why not tell us how Canada is dealing with immigration (both legal and illegal) and how it is benefiting your economy? ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/34 "2004-04-04T23:07:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sending jobs offshore is _legal_ and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. > > Automation is (the last time I checked) _legal_ and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. > > H-1B visas are _legal_ (although a large number of companies that sponsor them are lying through their teeth to get them issued) and have nothing to do with illegal immigrants. > > None of these _legal_ activities that are having a negative effect on the ability of U.S. citizens to find work have anything to do with _illegal_ immigration. I will not claim that no illegals have secured jobs in the $7 - $10 an hour range that some citizen might have chosen, but the vast majority of the _illegal_ aliens are truly doing work for which companies could not find U.S. labor. > > That does not, in itself, make illegal alien labor right or wrong, but in a discussion of illegal labor, offshore outsourcing, automation, and legal immigration really has no bearing on the subject. Perhaps I should have tried to make my point clearer. What I was trying to get across was that while outsourcing, off shoring, automation, etc. are removing jobs from the USA, illegal immigration exerts additional pressure on the situation. Some number of jobs that COULD AND MIGHT be taken by American CITIZENS are instead going to illegal immigrants who don’t pay taxes. Do you see the tie-in now? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/35 "2004-04-05T00:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > So Sam, are you also planning to immigrate into our wonderful country from Canada? Instead of telling us about a country you don’t live in, why not tell us how Canada is dealing with immigration (both legal and illegal) and how it is benefiting your economy? We accept immigrants like crazy, and it’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/36 "2004-04-05T02:55:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > We accept immigrants like crazy, and it’s a good thing. Well by golly gee then, if it’s good for you, it must be good for us!\ Of course, doing a bit of Googling, seems like not everyone up there is happy with your VERY liberal immigration policies. Here’s an interesting story: [U.S. State Department says Vancouver is one of two Canadian hubs for people smuggling](http://www.usbc.org/info/2004/feb/vancouver.htm) And didn’t you have an illegal immigrant who tried to cross over the Washington border with a trunk load of explosives to blow something up here? Luckily, WE caught him. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/37 "2004-04-05T04:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Some number of jobs that COULD AND MIGHT be taken by American CITIZENS are instead going to illegal immigrants who don’t pay taxes. Do you see the tie-in now? However, while they are both issues that might concern a U.S. citizen, they are separate issues that are not connected. People who attempt to connect them, using the words “immigrant” and “foreign” to create an imaginary linkage are simply engaging in xenophobia. Automation? Let’s discuss it. H-1B visas? Let’s discuss them. Offshore hiring and outsourcing? Let’s discuss them. Illigal immigrants? Let’s discuss them. Linking them all together? Go sit in the corner with Pat Buchanan and the rest of the neo-Know-Nothing Party and think hateful thoughts. Xenophobia is not a good basis on which to determine public policy. Given that the hardest-hit sector of the economy is manufacturing and that the majority of the jobs taken by illegal immigrants pay less than McDonalds or The Gap, illegal immigration has the _least_ effect on the ability of the typical out of work citizen to recover a decent paying job (which makes the cries about illegals and jobs that much more suspect). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/38 "2004-04-05T04:10:08Z")
BTW, the _only_ way that illegals might not pay taxes is if their good American employers are failing to withhold taxes from their checks. Any illegal whose employer _is_ withholding tax is actually paying a disproportionate amount of taxes since he or she cannot file with the IRS to get a refund. If it is true that they are not paying taxes, that would seem to be more of an issue of U.S. employers deliberately cheating the government. If a person makes a purchase from a retailer, that person will pay sales tax. If a person rents a place to live, they will pay real estate tax (because no landlord is going to charge less rent than will cover the taxes). So the only place they may not pay taxes are through the agencies of dishonest employers. Is it the worker’s fault that he or she has wound up with a dishonest employer? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/39 "2004-04-05T06:54:40Z")
**Zagadka:** _If they were truly concerned about immigration and not xenophobia, they would be interested in stabilizing the Mexican economy and helping it catch up to America as a place to live, not walling it off and using it as a vacation resort._ Yes, but then they wouldn’t have a large, cheap, docile labor force willing to do difficult and dangerous jobs for very little money. **SS:** \*As Americans have become wealthier, they have become more educated and therefore do not want to do menial jobs any more. […] This translates into a lot more people who are unwilling to work picking grapes, working as maids, and maintaining gardens. \* Or at least, unwilling to work at those jobs for the wages that immigrant workers will accept. I don’t think the central issue is really American workers feeling socially superior to such jobs because they now have more education. Rather, if the jobs offered what the average American worker considered decent wages and living conditions, American workers would be happy to fill them. After all, construction and manufacturing work are “menial” jobs too, but when they’re unionized and highly paid, they’re still quite appealing to many American workers. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760/40 "2004-04-05T07:57:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Or at least, unwilling to work at those jobs for the wages that immigrant workers will accept. Sure. That’s why I said that if there no immigration there would be wage inflation. The problem is, many of these jobs are only going to exist at low wages, because if the wages are much higher, better alternatives come into play. For instance, one big market for illegal aliens is as nannies and maids. And while the ultra-rich may be able to afford to pay a lot more, the more common customer for these services are middle class households where both parents work. And while these families may be able to afford nannies at $1,000/mo, they won’t be able to pay $2,000/mo, and would opt instead to forego a salary and stay home. Likewise, maid service is accessible to many people who are of middle class (we use maids ourselves because we both work), if weekly maid service cost $800/mo instead of $400, we would do without maids and just have to work harder to keep our home up. We couldn’t afford it. So if you cut off immigration tomorrow, all you’d do is deprive a large swath of the middle class with some services that they value quite highly. Those jobs would simply be lost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/close-the-borders-close-the-borders/237760.md?page=3)