# Closing Guantanamo Bay: Uh, How Is This Going To Transpire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065 "2009-01-13T09:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/21 "2009-01-15T11:13:04Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > can you provide more info? I haven’t heard anything about this. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/07/ST2008100702270.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/07/ST2008100702270.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/22 "2009-01-15T13:30:04Z")
interesting - thanks. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/23 "2009-01-15T13:41:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I agree though that just opening the gates and saying “bye, be good, write soon” might not be a great idea. Just doing so wouldn’t be a great idea, indeed. They should receive a lot of money and profuse apologies ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/24 "2009-01-15T17:03:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > interesting - thanks. Also, that’s a fairly old article (Oct 8/08) - the Bush administration [later appealed this court order,](http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-11/2008-11-25-voa4.cfm?CFID=92765966&CFTOKEN=65749011&jsessionid=88302a44e453019895071916492a35576204) and the men are still in Gitmo. And in [Yesterday’s news,](http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/connectasia/stories/200901/s2465690.htm) pressure is mounting on Australia to act as the “third country” and take in these 17 men. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/25 "2009-01-15T17:04:37Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Just doing so wouldn’t be a great idea, indeed. They should receive a lot of money and profuse apologies For the 17 Uighurs, yes. But there well may be people in Gitmo that you would not want wandering about the streets. Unfortunately, the process is so screwed up that there is no easy way to tell them apart. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/26 "2009-01-15T17:13:08Z")
And, worse, others who were just fine when their neighbor/enemies sold them to us, but who now hate us with a deep passion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/27 "2009-01-15T18:45:21Z")
The first thing to do when you’re stuck in a deep hole is put down the shovel. Yes, releasing these prisoners now will be a problem. But holding them to avoid this problem will just make the future problem bigger. It’s time for America to bite the bullet. Review the individual cases. If we have sufficient evidence that an individual committed acts of terrorism or other crimes, then conduct a hearing and give him a sentence. If we don’t have sufficient evidence about that individual, then it’s time for us to admit we don’t and let him go. What’s the alternative? Keep holding them and wait another few decades for everyone, guilty and innocent alike, to die of natural causes? As for where they’re going to go, send as many as possible back to their home countries. If their home country won’t take them, try to find some other country that will accept them. If nobody will take them, then let them go free in the United States. Like I said, it’s time for us to bite the bullet and start fixing our mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/28 "2009-01-15T18:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > All of the Guantanamo detainees are completely innocent of any wrongdoing. If you have evidence they committed some wrongdoing than produce it at the hearing and then find them guilty and sentence them to prison. If you don’t have the evidence then let them go. You don’t imprison people because you have a feeling they’re guilty. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/29 "2009-01-15T19:56:50Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > What about the 17 Uighur detainees? > a) home country (China) is likely to torture or execute them > b) no third party country wants them (it would irritate China) > c) The US has pretty much admitted that they have committed no crime > d) see above > e) and f) no Justice with either of these! I believe this issue has already come up in the past and some Uighurs were accepted and settled in Albania. ---
**Author:** ![whorfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/30 "2009-01-15T20:09:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you have evidence they committed some wrongdoing than produce it at the hearing and then find them guilty and sentence them to prison. If you don’t have the evidence then let them go. You don’t imprison people because you have a feeling they’re guilty. Or, for those actually caught on the battlefield (and I know that doesn’t apply to the majority of gitmo prisoners), classify them as POWs with the full rights accorded under the Geneva Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/31 "2009-01-15T20:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Or, for those actually caught on the battlefield (and I know that doesn’t apply to the majority of gitmo prisoners), classify them as POWs with the full rights accorded under the Geneva Conventions. That and acknowledge that the war’s over. Send the POWs home like we did with the Germans and Japanese after WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/32 "2009-01-15T20:11:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Review the individual cases. If we have sufficient evidence that an individual committed acts of terrorism or other crimes, then conduct a hearing and give him a sentence. If we don’t have sufficient evidence about that individual, then it’s time for us to admit we don’t and let him go. But you’re glossing over the heart of the problem. It could well be that we have verified evidence that some guy is really dangerous, but what if that evidence could not be heard in a court? For example, let’s say we waterboarded Khalid. His confession that he was involved in some plot led to the discovery of other evidence that confirmed that he is, indeed, one dangerous dude. However, since the source of the information was tortured out of him, it is hard to see how any of that evidence would stand up in court, or on appeal. So, the Bush Administration’s torture policies have probably prevented us from ever pursuing serious terrorism charges against actual bad guys in court. And yet, for those who really are bad guys, do we really wish to release them? It is a very tough problem. All I can think is to engage the international community on establishing a standard of how people captured on the battlefield who aren’t quite criminals, and aren’t quite POWs, should be dealt with. Whatever we end up doing to the actual bad apples in Guantanamo should probably be based on something more than Bush’s go-it-alone, unilateralist views, if for no other reason than to give greater legitimacy to the tough decisions that are ahead for Obama and his Administration. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/33 "2009-01-15T20:19:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you have evidence they committed some wrongdoing than produce it at the hearing and then find them guilty and sentence them to prison. If you don’t have the evidence then let them go. You don’t imprison people because you have a feeling they’re guilty. You’re excluding the messy middle. There are some detainees against whom there is more evidence than “a feeling they’re guilty,” but not enough to win a criminal case under US criminal law standards. Whether we should apply criminal law to people captured in the War on Terror is a complicated debate, and I don’t think it’s so obvious that the answer is yes. A lot of the standards and requirements of criminal law are crafted in the particular context of US police arresting criminals. And frequently they are unrelated to the probative nature of the evidence (for example, excluding evidence obtained without a warrant isn’t about the quality of the evidence). Many of these rules just don’t make sense in the context of people picked up on the battlefield or transferred to us by allies. I think that, ultimately, putting detainees into the criminal system might be the best option we have. But it is not at all as simple as you make it sound. If we do that, we are certainly going to let some people go because of rationales that have nothing to do with the quality of our proof. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/34 "2009-01-15T20:26:03Z")
I knew this was going to be a shit swamp from the moment I started finding out what was going on there a few years ago. How the hell do you fix a problem that someone else created when all solutions seem to have a high probability of resulting in a worse problem? I guess the only thing we can do is get the ones who committed crimes their due process and begin **ROYALLY** kissing the asses of the innocent ones. And it needs to start now. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/35 "2009-01-15T20:37:16Z")
How is the closing of Gitmo going to transpire? With much wailing and gnashing of teeth, according to the [comments on this Fox News poll](http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/01/12/goodbye-to-gitmo/). I’m just amazed at how many people are saying that this is a huge mistake on Obama’s part- that obviously those terrorists are going to immediately start blowin’ shit up when they get out. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/36 "2009-01-15T20:45:09Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I believe this issue has already come up in the past and some Uighurs were accepted and settled in Albania. Ya, that’s not working out so hot for them: > [@](#): > > They have now lived for more than a year in a squalid government refugee center on the grubby outskirts of Tirana, guarded by armed policemen. [Cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/world/europe/10resettle.html) Also: > [@](#): > > At least 15 of the 17 Uighurs who remain at Guantánamo have also been cleared for release, but not even Albania will accept them — and neither will the United States. Instead, American diplomats say they have asked nearly 100 countries to provide asylum to the detainees, only to find that Chinese officials have warned some of the same countries not to accept them. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/37 "2009-01-15T20:53:57Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I’m just amazed at how many people are saying that . . . obviously those terrorists are going to immediately start blowin’ shit up when they get out. Uhh, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/38 "2009-01-15T23:22:03Z")
> [@](#): > > But you’re glossing over the heart of the problem. It could well be that we have verified evidence that some guy is really dangerous, but what if that evidence could not be heard in a court? > > For example, let’s say we waterboarded Khalid. His confession that he was involved in some plot led to the discovery of other evidence that confirmed that he is, indeed, one dangerous dude. However, since the source of the information was tortured out of him, it is hard to see how any of that evidence would stand up in court, or on appeal. > > So, the Bush Administration’s torture policies have probably prevented us from ever pursuing serious terrorism charges against actual bad guys in court. And yet, for those who really are bad guys, do we really wish to release them? > > It is a very tough problem. All I can think is to engage the international community on establishing a standard of how people captured on the battlefield who aren’t quite criminals, and aren’t quite POWs, should be dealt with. Whatever we end up doing to the actual bad apples in Guantanamo should probably be based on something more than Bush’s go-it-alone, unilateralist views, if for no other reason than to give greater legitimacy to the tough decisions that are ahead for Obama and his Administration. The Bush Administration has used up all the trust and good faith it ever had in the bank. It can no longer look America in the eye and ask us to trust it because it knows secret stuff that it can’t tell us. That’s what got us into this mess. The best we can do at this point is start over. Put a new administration in and start rebuilding the fiath we’ve squandered. The worst thing we could do is perpetuate the wrongs that the Bush Administration have committed. We need to show that America as a whole is not just George Bush. > [@](#): > > You’re excluding the messy middle. There are some detainees against whom there is more evidence than “a feeling they’re guilty,” but not enough to win a criminal case under US criminal law standards. > > Whether we should apply criminal law to people captured in the War on Terror is a complicated debate, and I don’t think it’s so obvious that the answer is yes. A lot of the standards and requirements of criminal law are crafted in the particular context of US police arresting criminals. And frequently they are unrelated to the probative nature of the evidence (for example, excluding evidence obtained without a warrant isn’t about the quality of the evidence). Many of these rules just don’t make sense in the context of people picked up on the battlefield or transferred to us by allies. > > I think that, ultimately, putting detainees into the criminal system might be the best option we have. But it is not at all as simple as you make it sound. If we do that, we are certainly going to let some people go because of rationales that have nothing to do with the quality of our proof. I’m not saying it’s simple or non-problematic. If we release these guys some of them may commit future acts of terrorism or other crimes. But as I’ve already said, what’s the alternative? Admit that once we arrest somebody we can never afford to let him go? Start imprisoning people for the rest of their lives because they might commit some future crime? By now, I think the risk of releasing a possible future terrorist is outweighed by the risk of completely abandoning the rule of law in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/39 "2009-01-15T23:58:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > We might be talking past each other at the moment - I was talking about sending them to a 3rd country such as Canada. Canada would be a bad choice; we’d just detain them indefinitely under a [Security certificate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_certificate). ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065/40 "2009-01-16T00:02:17Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Uhh, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Yeah, I imagine the prisoners who didn’t actually do anything are pretty pissed at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/closing-guantanamo-bay-uh-how-is-this-going-to-transpire/481065.md?page=3)