# Clothahump, and others... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 2, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465 "2016-11-02T18:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/221 "2016-11-05T19:18:23Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > [My emphasis] > Quoted for motherfuckin’ truth. > > This is the fundamental factual error that, I believe, underpins every right-wing outrage about Clinton’s email: they think she exclusively communicated by emails on her private server, which meant that all of her confidential communications were run through an unsecure email service. Married to a mother just a few years younger, and responsible for email shit she can’t be bothered with. One cannot imagine the shit an email server can accumulate. I need to wade through tons of potentially, but not really, useful shit. In the mean time I’m TEN FUCKING THOUSAND posts behind regarding the Tandy Model 100 six inches from my foot. Do any of these jackasses ever check their email, themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/222 "2016-11-05T19:45:48Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > It’s a joke argument designed to do one thing - allow the OP to rant and rave, bitch and moan, all the while acting like he/she is genuinely, seriously, considering the other side. The OP asked specifically: > [@](#): > > What are the disasters that have befell our nation in the last 8 years? Two answers from Clothahump were: 1. Obama doubled the debt 2. Benghazi However, he has never come back to discuss some uncomfortable facts: -Previous Republican presidents more than doubled the debt, while Obama has raised it 1.7 times. -However terrible Benghazi was, Clinton was not found to shoulder the blame in multiple investigations run by Republican partisans - people who admitted publicly that the only reason to run these investigations was to get Clinton. - There were embassy attacks and deaths under the Bush presidency - why was Benghazi a “disaster for the country”, while the attacks under Bush were not? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/223 "2016-11-05T19:45:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Carters decision to let the Ayatollah take over Iran and the birth of Islamic fundamentalism might qualify. Fostering Islamic extremist movements was helpful for American interests at the time, namely for fighting communism and nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/224 "2016-11-05T19:58:10Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Fostering Islamic extremist movements was helpful for American interests at the time, namely for fighting communism and nationalism. The Americans had nothing to do with Khomeni, and the Shia islamic reaction. You confuse this with the Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/225 "2016-11-05T20:08:15Z")
if you want to understand how clothahump, etc, look at the world this week’s [This American Life](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/599/seriously?act=1#play) includes Ira talking to his Uncle, who gets his news from Fox. Uncle has no idea about anything he is so brainwashed - it’s really sad. and dangerous. Obama was never really in law school (what the hell?), immigration is a horrible flood of people growing, overwhelming our healthcare system (because it was fine before, right?) - and, of course, Hillary Clinton has been trying to hide emails but is about to be arrested by the FBI or NYPD or someone. alternate reality, totally. where lies are fine as long as they sound like want you want to believe. and facts? you just have to say “I don’t believe that”. or, like Clothy, ignore them. (see post #222) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/226 "2016-11-05T20:19:45Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > alternate reality, totally. > > where lies are fine as long as they sound like want you want to believe. and facts? you just have to say “I don’t believe that”. The outright lying by political leaders has now become completely over the top. For example, just yesterday, a Trump protester interrupted Obama at a rally for Clinton. What did Obama do? He told the crowd to stop booing, and then said: > [@](#): > > “You’ve got an older gentleman who is supporting his candidate. He’s not doing nothing. You don’t have to worry about him. This is what I mean about folks not being focused,” Obama said. “First of all, we live in a country that respects free speech. Second of all, it looks like maybe he might have served in our military and we ought to respect that. Third of all, he was elderly and we got to respect our elders. And fourth of all, don’t boo—vote!” This is factual. It was recorded. It is in the public record. Now, what did Mr. Trump say about this event? > [@](#): > > Trump said Obama “was talking to the protester, screaming at him, really screaming at him,” adding that “if I spoke the way Obama spoke to the protester, they would say, ‘He became unhinged!’ ” He then reiterated his point, saying that Obama “spent so much time screaming at this protester and, frankly, it was a disgrace.” This is what Trump said. In public. It is recorded. It is in the public record. Trump was lying here. Completely. Utterly. He made up an entirely different reality. And his supporters believe it without compunction. Even if you showed them a video of Obama doing the exact opposite, it would not change their minds. What on earth is the psychology behind this? Why can a leader say things that are completely, unequivocally, 100% false, and have supporters believe him without question? It’s baffling. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/227 "2016-11-05T21:53:22Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > If you see me that way, can you point out why? I feel neutral on this and i’m interested in your perspective on why you made the assumption. I made the assumption in error. I thought you were arguing as the OP was. Sorry. > [@Moriarty](#): > > Vietnam was mentioned up thread. I think that’s the gold standard for Democratic fuck ups (we started paying attention under Ike, but JFK put our soldiers in harms way, and LBJ elevated it into an unwinnable war). > > You? Any quagmire that you might lay at the feet of the GOP? Quite a few. But when the threshold on what constitutes as a disaster is being set so high, that number drops considerably. Down to only a couple with a couple of if’s and but’s. Which is the point I was trying to make - if you’re arguing the list of Democrat disasters (and it actually has some items in there) then that’s a different argument than the Democrats have never created a disaster. Those are two distinct arguments. Not one in the same as the OP is lamely playing. Pick a side - incapable of a disaster or not. > [@septimus](#): > > Contemporary examples offered include Obama’s economy and ACA. Is that what you got? In terms of the ACA I’d say sure that was a disaster. Big time. Problem is, the OP and many arguing with him/her wouldn’t agree that that’s a disaster. Nothing is that a Democrat has done. Show us! See? Nothing! Lame. > [@septimus](#): > > Are you familiar with the 2008 Credit Crisis, which surpassed all but one of the U.S. financial crises in the 20th centtury? Have you noticed that the S&P 500 Index almost tripled under President Obama? _ **Tripled** _. That’s not something you see ever day. If you think the Obama economy has been a disaster, I’m curious what you’re smoking. Weed. Which I should back off on because I don’t understand a thing on what you’re on about above. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/228 "2016-11-05T22:04:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The OP asked specifically: > Two answers from Clothahump were: > > 1. Obama doubled the debt > 2. Benghazi > > However, he has never come back to discuss some uncomfortable facts Facts or how either of those couldn’t possibly be regarded as disasters after you consider this, that, this over here, that there… it’s not even remotely a disaster, what’s wrong with you! OP is arguing Democrats are incapable of creating a disaster. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > -However terrible Benghazi was, Clinton was not found to shoulder the blame in multiple investigations run by Republican partisans - people who admitted publicly that the only reason to run these investigations was to get Clinton. Regardless of that that I’d still say that qualifies as a disaster. Big time, and from a whole load of angles. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/229 "2016-11-05T22:10:11Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/230 "2016-11-05T22:11:55Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > In terms of the ACA I’d say sure that was a disaster. Big time. > > Problem is, the OP and many arguing with him/her wouldn’t agree that that’s a disaster. Nothing is that a Democrat has done. Show us! See? Nothing! You assert that ACA was a disaster and that anyone who disagrees does so out of an irrational desire to acquit the Democrats of any fault. This is counterfactual. Many of those you’re arguing with would be happy to find Democrats guilty of not making ACA go far enough. > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Weed. Which I should back off on because I don’t understand a thing on what you’re on about above. I was refuting the claim that the economy has suffered under Obama. If you couldn’t even figure that much out then maybe you really should lay off the weed. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/231 "2016-11-05T23:11:20Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > OP is arguing Democrats are incapable of creating a disaster. No. Go back and look at it again. Someone said that the Obama years have been “a disaster.” OP disagrees with this. Asks for examples of this disaster. Examples given are poor. At no time is there any insinuation that Democrats are incapable of creating a disaster. At all. Ever. Only in your mind. Now, to the point of the OP - You say that “Benghazi” still qualifies as a disaster. I will agree that it certainly was not a good thing. However, bad things like this have happened for years, over every administration. For example, on [March 2, 2006](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/01/karachi.blast/), a bomb outside the US consulate in Pakistan killed a US diplomat and his driver. This was not widely seen as a “disaster” for the Bush administration. There are many other examples of attacks on embassies or diplomats under Bush. None of these were seen as “a disaster” for the Bush administration. Four Americans, including three diplomatic personel were killed in attacks during the Bush administration. Please explain then, how it becomes a “disaster” when a bad thing happens during the Obama administration? Please note also that Republicans were in the [forefront of cutting money for security](http://thehill.com/homenews/house/250237-gop-embassy-security-cuts-draw-democrats-scrutiny)for US embassies abroad. Do they not bear ANY responsibility for this “disaster”? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/232 "2016-11-05T23:37:18Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Fostering Islamic extremist movements was helpful for American interests at the time, namely for fighting communism and nationalism. The Shah was a reliable ally against Communism. I don’t even understand why we would want to fight nationalism. Do you have the slightest clue about the situation in Iran at the time? In 1979 I was in grad school at a university which taught petroleum engineering. We got lots of Iranian students. I never saw signs that they were fundamentalist, but I sure as hell knew they hated the Shah. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/233 "2016-11-05T23:42:46Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Big time. Don’t you mean bigly? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/234 "2016-11-06T00:16:07Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The outright lying by political leaders has now become completely over the top. For example, just yesterday, a Trump protester interrupted Obama at a rally for Clinton. What did Obama do? He told the crowd to stop booing, and then said: > > This is factual. It was recorded. It is in the public record. > > Now, what did Mr. Trump say about this event? > > This is what Trump said. In public. It is recorded. It is in the public record. > > Trump was lying here. Completely. Utterly. He made up an entirely different reality. And his supporters believe it without compunction. Even if you showed them a video of Obama doing the exact opposite, it would not change their minds. > > What on earth is the psychology behind this? Why can a leader say things that are completely, unequivocally, 100% false, and have supporters believe him without question? It’s baffling. This makes NO sense to me, and frankly seems like a symptom of everything that is wrong. Maybe there is just a significant chunk of people that do not care what the truth is, and they are completely willing to swallow whatever they are told because it fits their narrative. But don’t people even care about the truth? like at all? I am so ready for this election to be over, but on November 9, it won’t be. Not really. I’ll still be dealing with people who hate so blindly that they believe that a man’s defense of a protester was “unhinged screaming at” him. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/235 "2016-11-06T00:42:21Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > This makes NO sense to me, and frankly seems like a symptom of everything that is wrong. Maybe there is just a significant chunk of people that do not care what the truth is, and they are completely willing to swallow whatever they are told because it fits their narrative. But don’t people even care about the truth? like at all? No, they don’t care about “the truth”. They care about _their_ truth. Same with the 9/11 “Truth” Movement. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/236 "2016-11-06T01:05:37Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I am so ready for this election to be over, but on November 9, it won’t be. Not really. I’ll still be dealing with people who hate so blindly that they believe that a man’s defense of a protester was “unhinged screaming at” him. Sadly, you are correct. The Republicans have learned from this election - just not what they really should have learned. We will be dealing with 4 years of outright lying about things that are completely factually evident. We will be told the most outrageous lies to our faces. Why? Because this works. It works really well. If Clinton gives an acceptance speech that says “I pledge to govern for ALL Americans, those who voted for me, and those who did not”… It will be reported as “Clinton promised revenge on Republicans and said she will take away our guns.” ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/237 "2016-11-06T01:06:41Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > No, they don’t care about “the truth”. They care about _their_ truth. Same with the 9/11 “Truth” Movement. I can handle the truthiness junkies when they are just some random tiny percentage of the country - or the world. But the Tangerine Nightmare will be getting more votes than a “random tiny percentage” and that depresses me. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/238 "2016-11-06T01:28:01Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I can handle the truthiness junkies when they are just some random tiny percentage of the country - or the world. But the Tangerine Nightmare will be getting more votes than a “random tiny percentage” and that depresses me. Der Bungle’s base is the equally nutty faithful (e.g.: Joe Walsh) and hard-core Republicans who know the truth but simply cannot bring themselves to vote outside their party. One hopes that large numbers of the latter will come to their senses. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/239 "2016-11-06T02:06:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You assert that ACA was a disaster and that anyone who disagrees does so out of an irrational desire to acquit the Democrats of any fault. I guess I do. I consider it a failure and a disaster in how it was passed. I also consider those on the left who think it’s sunshine and happiness and all is good with it falling into the trap of the OP - if you can’t be critical of anything your party’s done, or admit any of its failures, how can you in good faith ask the opponent things done wrong that you want to ‘genuinely’ address? You can’t. And shouldn’t feign that you could. Because the evidence at hand is nothing the Democrat side done is a wrong, or a disaster. > [@septimus](#): > > This is counterfactual. Many of those you’re arguing with would be happy to find Democrats guilty of not making ACA go far enough. Cute. And yet another example of how your “true Scotts… errr, Democrat” isn’t responsible for any disaster or major mistake. You’re covered… ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465/240 "2016-11-06T02:09:33Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Cute. And yet another example of how your “true Scotts… errr, Democrat” isn’t responsible for any disaster or major mistake. You’re covered… Actually, that was a major complaint of the ACA. That it didn’t go far enough. Often twisted by The Right to demonstrate that a majority did not favor the ACA. ETA: [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/08/bill-oreilly/majority-people-polls-do-not-support-obamacare/) > [@](#): > > Some polls have also found that at least a portion of people who dislike the health care bill dislike it because they wanted to see more dramatic changes to the health care system. A CNN poll in December found that 13 percent of those who opposed the law did so because it wasn’t liberal enough. Another 43 percent favored the bill and 37 percent said it was too liberal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-and-others/770465.md?page=13)