# Clothahump defends usage of ethnic slurs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030 "2017-01-24T14:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/1 "2017-01-24T14:20:36Z")
This one is just for **Clothy** : > [@Republitrolls.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republitrolls/777646/287): > > Calling all Mexicans wetbacks is incorrect usage of the term. The term is applied correctly to anyone who swims the Rio Grande and illegally enters the USA, regardless of country of origin, and as such is not an ethnic slur. Only people who look for things to be offended about think it is one. My initial response: > [@Republitrolls.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republitrolls/777646/315): > > Ahh, the old “n\*\*\*\*r isn’t racist because it only applies to the bad ones” argument (also known as “not all black people are n\*\*\*\*\*s”). Haven’t heard that one in a while! Please, tell us more about your opinion on ethnic slurs. Is beaner not a slur since it only applies to people who eat beans? Maybe there aren’t any racial or ethnic slurs at all, since they can only apply to certain groups within an ethnic group (or some other sub-grouping)! I expect this attitude is seething under the surface of a lot of Americans, unfortunately. But since I love all Dopers (even **Clothy** , as disgusting as his attitude is on this), I’d love to hear other conservative Dopers excoriate **Clothy** for his repulsive assertion, here, in this thread, and perhaps they can assure me that I’m wrong that this is a common sentiment. Truly repulsive, **Clothahump**. A hateful term that comes from hate and nothing else. It’s not about a river (obviously, since very, very few immigrants actually swam across any river to get here), it’s about a hatred of a class of people that requires a dehumanizing label. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/2 "2017-01-24T14:26:17Z")
Problem is that the term has evolved over time. As I understand it, the original usage of it was in line with Clothahump’s definition and was not an ethnic slur (if it might have been a slur to the particular people who snuck in illegally). It would seem now that it’s an ethnic slur, but that’s the term evolving, and it’s possible that some people still use it in the old sense. > **[Wetback (slur)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetback_(slur))** > > Wetback is a derogatory term used in the United States to refer to foreign nationals residing in the U.S., most commonly Mexicans. The word mostly targets illegal immigrants in the United States. Generally used as an ethnic slur, the term was originally coined and applied only to Mexicans who entered the U.S. state of Texas from Mexico by crossing the Rio Grande, which is the U.S. border, presumably by swimming or wading across the river and getting wet in the process. > The first use of the ter... ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/3 "2017-01-24T14:30:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Problem is that the term has evolved over time. As I understand it, the original usage of it was in line with Clothahump’s definition and was not an ethnic slur (if it might have been a slur to the particular people who snuck in illegally). It would seem now that it’s an ethnic slur, but that’s the term evolving, and it’s possible that some people still use it in the old sense. > > [Wetback (slur) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetback_(slur)) That sounds like it describes literally every single racial/ethnic/religious slur ever. Some people use n\*\*\*\*\* in the “old sense” (senses, really, since it has had multiple meanings over time), but that doesn’t excuse any modern usage in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/4 "2017-01-24T14:32:57Z")
If you can see into people’s hearts and know that they really mean it as an ethnic slur then you’re entitled to this sort of outrage. But absent that, I would think a guy like you who loves all Dopers would adopt a more charitable in interpreting other people’s intentions. ETA: One key question that doesn’t involve seeing into anyone’s heart is: _does Clothahump actually use the term to describe the entire ethnic group_? Until you have evidence that he does - and I don’t believe you do - then you’re back to what I wrote above. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/5 "2017-01-24T14:35:10Z")
I have been aware of the term all my adult life, and it’s always been a slur. On the other hand, I’ve never actually heard anyone in real life use it. In my bubble, people don’t use racial and ethnic slurs. It’s kind of nice. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/6 "2017-01-24T14:36:06Z")
While it’s certainly offensive to some we’re not talking the level of really hateful terms such as nigger, kike, etc. Wouldn’t use it myself but equally I wouldn’t throw a hissyfit if others did. BTW the euphemism n\*\*\*\*r above reminds me of Louis CK’s comment that people who use it don’t want to write it themselves but force readers to say it for them in their heads. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/7 "2017-01-24T14:36:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you can see into people’s hearts and know that they really mean it as an ethnic slur then you’re entitled to this sort of outrage. But absent that, I would think a guy like you who loves all Dopers would adopt a more charitable in interpreting other people’s intentions. I’m much less concerned about intention than I am about actions (and words, in this case) – the attitude that he has expressed, in words, is repulsive. If he has no ethnic hatred in his heart than perhaps he can explain why he’s using a term that’s, quite reasonably, seen by so many as a hateful slur – and my mind is open to be changed. But I found his explanation ridiculous, and disgusting, and no different than the things that I heard so often as a young man from my classmates and peers about how slurs for black people weren’t really slurs because they just applied to the bad ones (or some other equally weak justification). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/8 "2017-01-24T14:39:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ETA: One key question that doesn’t involve seeing into anyone’s heart is: _does Clothahump actually use the term to describe the entire ethnic group_? Until you have evidence that he does - and I don’t believe you do - then you’re back to what I wrote above. It doesn’t matter – it’s still a slur if he’s only using it for immigrants, or illegal immigrants, or his ridiculously small grouping of ‘people who swam across the Rio Grande’. It doesn’t matter if someone calls a person or group n\*\*\*\*\*(s) but is not intending to describe all black people – it’s still a hateful slur against black people. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/9 "2017-01-24T14:43:20Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > While it’s certainly offensive to some we’re not talking the level of really hateful terms such as nigger, kike, etc. Wouldn’t use it myself but equally I wouldn’t throw a hissyfit if others did. I wasn’t aware there were grades of offensiveness for racial slurs. If I heard someone refer to a person as a “wetback” I would judge them exactly as if they had said the words you describe as “really hateful.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/10 "2017-01-24T14:43:46Z")
The reason hateful language inspires offense, outrage, and challenges like this post is not because there’s something inherently wrong with certain syllables arranged in a certain way, but because historically the usage of such language has always been used to justify terrible, monstrous actions like slavery and genocide, or build up an attitude to ease those events into being, and the societal tolerance of such language makes it easier to tolerate those kind of actions. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/11 "2017-01-24T14:45:15Z")
So, raghead should be OK as well, eh? The term is applied correctly to anyone who wears a headscarf, regardless of country of origin, and as such is not an ethnic slur. Only people who look for things to be offended about think it is one. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/12 "2017-01-24T14:46:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m much less concerned about intention than I am about actions (and words, in this case) – the attitude that he has expressed, in words, is repulsive. If he has no ethnic hatred in his heart than perhaps he can explain why he’s using a term that’s, quite reasonably, seen by so many as a hateful slur – and my mind is open to be changed. Most likely he thinks his usage of the term is the correct usage, and people like you are being oversensitive. (Even if he’s wrong about this, that doesn’t then mean that he’s trying to denigrate anyone with this usage.) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It doesn’t matter – it’s still a slur if he’s only using it for immigrants, or illegal immigrants, or his ridiculously small grouping of ‘people who swam across the Rio Grande’. Of course it matters. If it applies only to the illegal immigrants then it’s not (being used as) an ethnic slur. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if someone calls a person or group n\*\*\*\*\*(s) but is not intending to describe all black people – it’s still a hateful slur against black people. Hard to compare directly, because the literal and historical meaning of the term doesn’t differentiate between one type of black person and another. That term has in fact evolved over time to become more offensive, but it’s not like it evolved from a specific to a more general application like wetback did. So someone who claims he’s just using it for certain people is just making up his own definition, which doesn’t fly. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/13 "2017-01-24T14:48:39Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > While it’s certainly offensive to some we’re not talking the level of really hateful terms such as nigger, kike, etc. Wouldn’t use it myself but equally I wouldn’t throw a hissyfit if others did. > > … Humpy is a moron, his use of ethnic slurs is moronic. Don’t mitigate his comments with a “not as bad as” qualifier. If there’s a line, he clearly crossed it with that comment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/14 "2017-01-24T15:00:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Most likely he thinks his usage of the term is the correct usage, and people like you are being oversensitive. (Even if he’s wrong about this, that doesn’t then mean that he’s trying to denigrate anyone with this usage.) Why would this matter? Plenty of slave owners thought they were using correct language as well, undoubtedly. So did plenty of anti-Civil Rights, anti-miscegenation, and pro-segregation activists. It’s hateful language, regardless of intent. > [@](#): > > Of course it matters. If it applies only to the illegal immigrants then it’s not (being used as) an ethnic slur. So it’s an anti-immigrant slur, or an anti-illegal-immigrant slur, or an anti-Rio-Grande-swimmer slur, perhaps, in his intention (while obviously still being an ethnic slur in general). Those don’t make it any better. This is not a defense. > [@](#): > > Hard to compare directly, because the literal and historical meaning of the term doesn’t differentiate between one type of black person and another. That term has in fact evolved over time to become more offensive, but it’s not like it evolved from a specific to a more general application like wetback did. So someone who claims he’s just using it for certain people is just making up his own definition, which doesn’t fly. I’ve known plenty of people who claimed, explicitly, that it did, in fact “differentiate between one type of black person and another”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/15 "2017-01-24T15:02:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Problem is that the term has evolved over time. As I understand it, the original usage of it was in line with Clothahump’s definition and was not an ethnic slur (if it might have been a slur to the particular people who snuck in illegally). It would seem now that it’s an ethnic slur, but that’s the term evolving, and it’s possible that some people still use it in the old sense. > > [Wetback (slur) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetback_(slur)) Cringe-inducing [popular use from 1960.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6kj8SVgwPk) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/16 "2017-01-24T15:07:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Problem is that the term has evolved over time. As I understand it, the original usage of it was in line with Clothahump’s definition and was not an ethnic slur (if it might have been a slur to the particular people who snuck in illegally). It would seem now that it’s an ethnic slur, but that’s the term evolving, and it’s possible that some people still use it in the old sense. > > [Wetback (slur) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetback_(slur)) Speaking as someone who grew up in white Texas, “wetback” was always used as an insult/slur on illegal immigrants, not hispanics in general. For the general hispanic slurs, the terms I always heard were “beaner” or “spic”. Not that it makes it any better, but “wetback” was definitely NOT the generic slur that people have made it out to be. No idea about modern usage though. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/17 "2017-01-24T15:11:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Problem is that the term has evolved over time. As I understand it, the original usage of it was in line with Clothahump’s definition and was not an ethnic slur (if it might have been a slur to the particular people who snuck in illegally). It would seem now that it’s an ethnic slur, but that’s the term evolving, and it’s possible that some people still use it in the old sense. > > [Wetback (slur) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetback_(slur)) Of course even if that is the case it supports the point I have made that racism is an extreme form of ignorance. With many bits like that just ignored by people that in really do not understand why minorities do have problems still today. The issue is: Do the ones that are grossly wrong (like \*\*billfish678 \*\*also) are willing to learn? Hard to do when other posters like **octopus** , \*\*aldiboronti \*\*and others just cavalierly push the idea that they can defend their hate speech just because they think that they are making a point about defending people of “unfounded” accusations that they are Trolls or to defend “the voices of the opposition”. As if they were the only ones here. What that does in reality is to encourage more irresponsibility and bigotry in the end. As much as I do not agree with \*\*Bricker \*\*one issue he pointed before is a bit valid: If you are willing to participate in a thread where very reprehensible things are being said it is crucial to tell the one making the hateful remarks that you do not agree with the poster. Otherwise you are in essence letting others that you agree with the ignorance, the evil or the troll. It is that defending a principle is not bad, but unfortunately I have been discussing so long in forums to know that usually the ones claiming to defend a principle and not the hate of a poster come up later with other hateful or ignorant ideas. Hate is a great crank magnet. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/18 "2017-01-24T15:17:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would this matter? Plenty of slave owners thought they were using correct language as well, undoubtedly. So did plenty of anti-Civil Rights, anti-miscegenation, and pro-segregation activists. It’s hateful language, regardless of intent. I agree that the term has also evolved over time, and is a lot more offensive now than it was back then. That said, most of those people back then meant to use an offensive term that applied to all black people. They just didn’t mind doing that. > [@](#): > > So it’s an anti-immigrant slur, or an anti-illegal-immigrant slur, or an anti-Rio-Grande-swimmer slur, perhaps, in his intention (while obviously still being an ethnic slur in general). Those don’t make it any better. This is not a defense. Of course it does and of course it is. > [@](#): > > I’ve known plenty of people who claimed, explicitly, that it did, in fact “differentiate between one type of black person and another”. They meant that in a tautological sense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/19 "2017-01-24T15:21:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that the term has also evolved over time, and is a lot more offensive now than it was back then. That said, most of those people back then meant to use an offensive term that applied to all black people. They just didn’t mind doing that. I don’t see how this matters. > [@](#): > > Of course it does and of course it is. How? Hatred of Mexican immigrants, or Mexican illegal immigrants, or Mexicans who swam a river, isn’t any less hateful than hatred of all Mexicans, or all Hispanic people. > [@](#): > > They meant that in a tautological sense. They meant that it only applied to the “bad” ones (which usually had something to do with manner of dress, speech, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030/20 "2017-01-24T15:22:43Z")
Is there really a debate going on in here trying to decide if “wetback” is a racist slur? I have never heard it used as anything but. It is a hateful term that no one should use. As Sean Sphincter would say - PERIOD! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clothahump-defends-usage-of-ethnic-slurs/778030.md?page=2)