# Co-Worker accused me of being racist...was he right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 2, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703 "2021-11-02T23:24:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/221 "2021-11-04T16:58:26Z")
Then what you asked is so vague as to be useless. And the OP did assume they were likely to know about specific customs anywhere on the continent. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/222 "2021-11-04T17:04:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > When no-one claimed they did, and when I responded, very directly to what you said, by quite reasonably asking for clarification i.e. But the only way that it would be make someone an expert that someone’s parents are from a country is if they inherited all the knowledge of their parents. It’s not a strawman on my part, it is directly addressing the faulty assumption of the OP that you claim is reasonable based on their parentage. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > When no-one claimed they did, and when I responded, very directly to what you said, by quite reasonably asking for clarification i.e. You made a claim that the information in the OP was enough to reasonably assume that the person was an expert on India. The information given was his appearance and his parents’ country of origin. You then said that it wasn’t just his appearance that you would go by. I was being a bit flippant with the goa’uld comment, I don’t really believe that there exists parasitic space leeches that have taken over the galaxy. So, instead of masterfully refuting that they are alien creatures, explain in _your own words_ why you think that having parents from another country makes you an expert on that country? This way, there’s no confusion as to what you mean. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You suggest that it is me with a strawman and a loaded “gotcha” question and so choose to answer a question that I never asked. Right, because your question was phrased as a presuming absolutist question that had no bearing on the actual subject. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There was never any “gotcha”. The answer I was expecting from you was some variation of “yes, but it is not that simple” and the conversation progresses from there. Then maybe you just are very poor at asking questions that are relevant. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Sometimes we “gotcha” ourselves and we say things and take positions that give us little room for manoeuvre when inconsistencies, complications and ambiguities are pointed out. Yes, you do seem to have done this with your absolutist questions. But anyway, like I said, go ahead and explain, in your own words, what in the OP would lead you to believe that this person is an expert on India, and we can see who the conversation progresses from there. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/223 "2021-11-04T17:08:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You made a claim that the information in the OP was enough to reasonably assume that the person was an expert on India. Wrong, Completely wrong. Quote me where I said that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/224 "2021-11-04T17:22:11Z")
Post #178. I respond to Isamu’s absolutist statement of whether you should _never_ take a person’s appearance into account, by replying whether you should make assumptions based on a person’s appearance. In this case, the OP making the assumption that the person was an expert on India. You said that the OP had more than appearance. Well, the other thing that the OP had was a claim that the parents were from India. So, if you were not claiming that someone’s parents being from a country is enough to reasonably assume makes them an expert on that country, what point, if _any at all_ were you actually trying to make? (You can use your own words here, to clear up any possible confusion.) Or are you just randomly finding places where you can attempt to make contrary non-sequiturs that are not related to the discussion at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/225 "2021-11-04T17:42:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Post #178. I respond to Isamu’s absolutist statement of whether you should _never_ take a person’s appearance into account, by replying whether you should make assumptions based on a person’s appearance. In this case, the OP making the assumption that the person was an expert on India. I picked you up on the fact that your reporting of the OP was incomplete. That’s all. Were there a specfic claimI was making you’d know it. You said that > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You made a claim that the information in the OP was enough to reasonably assume that the person was an expert on India. and I clearly have not, you can’t quote it because the claim doesn’t exist. If you think that is what I believe you could ask me instead of assuming But I can help you out with a quote that is far more relevant. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It would be obnoxious to assume they _must_ know all about it and _must_ be able to help but it isn’t at all wrong of you to ask the question. Nor is it wrong of them to say “no, sorry, can’t help”. Which is a billion miles from any of the imaginary claims you assign to me. If you are at all uncertain about the claims I’m making, like if you go searching through all my previous posts and can’t find where I made a specific claim, or if you think what I said was in any way ambiguous then the best thing to do is ask me straight out and I’ll give you straight answer. I’ll even do you the massive favour of answering the question you ask rather than the one I would personally prefer to answer. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/226 "2021-11-04T17:42:54Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > > But I/it wasn’t racist, unless and until we just discard the dictionary definitions of the word: > > From your own cite: > > > When discussing concepts like racism, therefore, it is prudent to recognize that quoting from a dictionary is unlikely to either mollify or persuade the person with whom one is arguing. I feel like the context from the Merriam-Webster entry got a bit elided in that snip: > The lexicographer’s role is to explain how words are (or have been) actually used, not how some may feel that they should be used, and they say nothing about the intrinsic nature of the thing named or described by a word, much less the significance it may have for individuals. When discussing concepts like racism, therefore, it is prudent to recognize that quoting from a dictionary is unlikely to either mollify or persuade the person with whom one is arguing. Which is pretty much exactly what I’m saying (the context of my post definitely didn’t make the cut in that snip). If you look at the issue from the POV of both people involved: - one will quite possibly react poorly to the “othering” comment, and - the commenter will quite possibly not take kindly to the use of the term “racist.” Invoking that term, quite often, seems to miss the forest for the trees. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/227 "2021-11-04T17:45:00Z")
Several have stated they feel there’s some important distinction to be made between _saying_ something racist and _being_ racist. I’m not convinced that kind of fine distinction applies in the real world. Take the OP for example. He recounted the conversation with the co-worker “_He then said ‘I think what you just **said** was racist’_.” Yet looking at the thread title, it reads ‘Co-Worker accused me of **being** racist.’ So the OP certainly didn’t make that distinction and I’m sure he would not be alone in this regard. The OP’s intent appears to have been conveying the message - _I value your opinion on a matter that I suspect you have some expertise on._ The co-worker seems to have disregarded the OP’s intent, and instead glommed on to his erroneous assumption. And, yes, to be accused of engaging in any racist behavior or words is seen as being a very bad thing in our society. Folks that either walk that walk or talk that talk are bad people. Claiming there are shades of criminality or sin here is not particularly convincing. We judge people both by their words and their deeds and label them accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/228 "2021-11-04T17:59:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I picked you up on the fact that your reporting of the OP was incomplete. That’s all. Well, no, you didn’t as I didn’t make any claims as to what was in the OP. I was responding to a poster about whether you should make assumptions about someone based on their appearance, when you helpfully butted in to point out that there was more than appearance in the OP. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If you think that is what I believe you could ask me instead of assuming Okay, what in the OP makes you think that it is reasonable to think that the co-worker would be an expert on India? As you said: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > it isn’t at all wrong of you to ask the question. Which implies that you think that the co-worker would have some sort of knowledge about India based on the information given in the OP. Do you think that the OP was wrong to make the assumption that the co-worker was an expert on India? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ll even do you the massive favour of answering the question you ask rather than the one I would personally prefer to answer. Okay, do you think that all children of immigrants are experts on their parents’ country of origin? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/229 "2021-11-04T18:06:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > They may not have been offended, or they might have been annoyed but didn’t think it was worth getting into a thirty post back-and-forth (or conversational equivalent) with you about it when they doubted you’d ever understand what they were trying to tell you. I don’t know why that would ever have occurred to me. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/230 "2021-11-04T18:07:23Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Several have stated they feel there’s some important distinction to be made between _saying_ something racist and _being_ racist. I’m not convinced that kind of fine distinction applies in the real world. Which is why people refuse to reflect and grow. If you point out a behavior that is problematic, instead of fixing it, they become defensive and double down on it. > [@Cardigan](#): > > He recounted the conversation with the co-worker “ _He then said ‘I think what you just **said** was racist’_ .” Yet looking at the thread title, it reads ‘Co-Worker accused me of **being** racist.’ So the OP certainly didn’t make that distinction and I’m sure he would not be alone in this regard. Probably not. There are quite a number of people who get severely offended over being called out for saying something racist. That doesn’t in any way make it right. > [@Cardigan](#): > > The OP’s intent appears to have been conveying the message - _I value your opinion on a matter that I suspect you have some expertise on._ And it was the assumptions that led the OP to think that the co-worker would have expertise on that matter that were racist. > [@Cardigan](#): > > The co-worker seems to have disregarded the OP’s intent, and instead glommed on to his erroneous assumption. Because the intent wasn’t what was incorrect there, it was the racist assumptions that were made. > [@Cardigan](#): > > And, yes, to be accused of engaging in any racist behavior or words is seen as being a very bad thing in our society. Some people take it as a sign to reflect and grow, some take it as an insult to their pride and get butt-hurt over it. > [@Cardigan](#): > > Folks that either walk that walk or talk that talk are bad people. No, just folks who defend that walk or talk. Those who engage in it _after_ being told that it is problematic. > [@Cardigan](#): > > Claiming there are shades of criminality or sin here is not particularly convincing. No one claims that there are _any_ shades of criminality or sin. The only sin is in doubling down and getting offended over someone pointing out something that they said that is racist. > [@Cardigan](#): > > We judge people both by their words and their deeds and label them accordingly. Some people feel the need to label people accordingly, and make assumptions based on those labels. They then project that everyone is labeling them as well. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/231 "2021-11-04T18:10:06Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > He recounted the conversation with the co-worker “ _He then said ‘I think what you just **said** was racist’_ .” Yet looking at the thread title, it reads ‘Co-Worker accused me of **being** racist.’ So the OP certainly didn’t make that distinction and I’m sure he would not be alone in this regard. I’ve said before that English needs a distinction like Spanish has between _ser_ and _estar_. Caveat that I’m remembering this distinction from high school Spanish and welcome correction, but the basic idea IIRC is that _ser_ is used for “to be” where you’re talking about an immutable (or immutable-ish) characteristic, and _estar_ is used where you’re talking about a temporary state. It’s possible to “be racist” in the moment without “being a racist” as a personality characteristic. The lack of this subtle distinction can make communication difficult, but we press on; and it’s really helpful if folks can learn not to mistake _estar_ for _ser._ ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/232 "2021-11-04T18:11:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, no, you didn’t as I didn’t make any claims as to what was in the OP. I was responding to a poster about whether you should make assumptions about someone based on their appearance, when you helpfully butted in to point out that there was more than appearance in the OP. Well fair enough, if your initial comments were not related to the OP then me picking you up on leaving information out was irrelevant. A simple “I was not talking about the OP there” is all that was needed. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, what in the OP makes you think that it is reasonable to think that the co-worker would be an expert on India? Nothing, I don’t think that and never have. see my quote in my previous post. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Which implies that you think that the co-worker would have some sort of knowledge about India based on the information given in the OP No, at no point have I suggested that, see my quote in my previous post. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, do you think that all children of immigrants are experts on their parents’ country of origin? No, far from it. I’d go so far as to say that few of them probably are. But again, where did I ever claim anything about being an expert? again I refer you to my quote in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/233 "2021-11-04T18:14:07Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, at no point have I suggested that, see my quote in my previous post. Your previous post says: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > it isn’t at all wrong of you to ask the question. So, if it wasn’t wrong at all to ask the question, then it wasn’t wrong at all to assume that the co-worker would have some sort of knowledge about India. Right? Or do you just use words and then abandon them when they become inconvenient? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Well fair enough, if your initial comments were not related to the OP then me picking you up on leaving information out was irrelevant. A simple “I was not talking about the OP there” is all that was needed. I guess I made the mistake of assuming that you were actually making comments that were relevant to what I said rather than random non-sequiturs. This did lead me to make other assumptions, like that you had any sort of point to what you were saying. My bad, I will not make those assumptions about your posts in the future. See, we can all grow. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/234 "2021-11-04T18:21:04Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Mrs. L v1.0 was Indian, by the way. She never wore saris or churidars to work—always women’s business suits, either skirt/jacket or slacks/jacket. On evenings and weekends, though… She wasn’t American (permanent resident, by her choice). How you dress does indicate things about you, clearly. If what are wearing is voluntary (not a dress code or uniform) it shows personal style. It may show religious preference, the crucifix as in your example (but sometimes it’s just a style choice, remember Madonna?) but mostly it just shows styles and colors the person likes. What it doesn’t show is nationality. Or even ethnicity. And certainly not if a person knows how to keep a nation of various ethnicities, cultures and languages, from typing in an URL wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/235 "2021-11-04T18:33:21Z")
So what should we call making rude unfounded assumptions about a person based on stereotypes relating to the persons racial appearance? Or should such behavior be condoned for fear that calling it out as wrong might offend the person who engaged in it. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/236 "2021-11-04T18:41:36Z")
You can call that person a racist. However, doing so is probably not going to result in the positive outcome that some folks hope will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/237 "2021-11-04T18:48:16Z")
What would you recommend instead? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/238 "2021-11-04T18:56:38Z")
I don’t claim to have a good answer to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/239 "2021-11-04T19:01:42Z")
So again, what would you suggest? Just grin and bear it? Accept the constant offense silently for fear of offending them? This sort of racially insensitive behavior is bad and should be discouraged. It is clear that many people don’t know that it is bad, and those people need to be educated. The ideal way to convince them otherwise is to teach them empathy so that they understand why their behavior is wrong and internalize a desire to do better in the future. But that is often difficult. Being told you have done something bad is going to hurt. Since people don’t like to feel that they are behaving badly they will tend to convince themselves that their behavior wasn’t actually bad. An alternative is to apply social pressure such that even if they haven’t internalized a desire not to do this bad thing they stop doing it just to avoid the social consequences. (similar to the HR discussion in one of my previous posts). So yes, calling people out for their racist behavior is going to offend them, and they may feel that they are socially stigmatized by that accusation, but that is the only way to achieve progress. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703/240 "2021-11-04T19:13:00Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > You can call that person a racist. However, doing so is probably not going to result in the positive outcome that some folks hope will happen. I think this requires looking at the long game. Will it stop the behavior now? Maybe not. But if society starts calling this stuff out, it will change people’s perception that it’s ok and will be tolerated. OP didn’t really think it was an issue. I bet he does now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/co-worker-accused-me-of-being-racist-was-he-right/953703.md?page=13)