# Coal company CEO to sue EPA over global warming lying **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515 "2014-06-10T23:52:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/21 "2014-07-03T15:29:14Z")
There ought to be a special court for handling cases like this, the schizophrenic street people with CIA-implanted brain chips, etc. The judge could wear a Gilbert-and-Sullivan outfit and spout Marxist (as in Groucho) rhetoric. Just to troll some of the litigants, in the corner would stand a US flag postage stamp in the middle of several square yards of gold fringe. Put it on pay-per-view and it could do pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/22 "2014-07-03T17:44:46Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > There ought to be a special court for handling cases like this, the schizophrenic street people with CIA-implanted brain chips, etc. The judge could wear a Gilbert-and-Sullivan outfit and spout Marxist (as in Groucho) rhetoric. Just to troll some of the litigants, in the corner would stand a US flag postage stamp in the middle of several square yards of gold fringe. > > Put it on pay-per-view and it could do pretty well. Can’t judges decline to take cases? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/23 "2014-07-03T18:33:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Based on what I have seen, \*\*Simplicio \*\*is correct, he is referring to the lawsuits, the lawsuits are not looking to declare the EPA as lying about the science. (IIUC they are looking more to declare the EPA as being wrong on technicalities and not following the rules according to the lawsuit) What the sorry CEO is claiming in the interview is… well, a lie. That appears to be the situation. Murray is publicly spouting the sort of garbage that he **wishes** the lawsuit was about – that the climate science the EPA is relying on is “incorrect”, and that complying with the regulations would cost his industry and the power industry too much money. In reality the case seems to hinge on this kind of technicality: > [@](#): > > The “specific prohibition” against EPA’s proposed rule is in the very statutory provision the agency cites as its authority: Section 111(d) of the Clean Air Act, 42 U.S.C. § 7411(d). That provision grants EPA certain authority to require States to regulate existing-source emissions, but it specifically excludes the regulation of any air pollutant emitted from a source category that EPA already regulates under Section 112 of the Act, 42 U.S.C. § 7412. As even EPA concedes, a “literal” application of this carve-out prohibits the proposed regulation because the agency has already regulated coal-fired power plants under Section 112. The case is supposed to be _Murray Energy Corp. v. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency et al., case number 14-1112, in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit_, but all I could find under that designation is the [amicus brief](http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MurrayAmicus.pdf) from the nine states supporting Murray, but that brief does contain a good deal of detailed information. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/24 "2014-07-03T18:41:16Z")
[nm](http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MurrayAmicus.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/25 "2014-07-03T20:08:48Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That appears to be the situation. Murray is publicly spouting the sort of garbage that he **wishes** the lawsuit was about – that the climate science the EPA is relying on is “incorrect”, and that complying with the regulations would cost his industry and the power industry too much money. > > In reality the case seems to hinge on this kind of technicality: And, if his lawsuit is successful, you can bet he (and folks like him) are going to be claiming that they proved in court that AGW is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/26 "2014-07-03T20:58:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And, if his lawsuit is successful, you can bet he (and folks like him) are going to be claiming that they proved in court that AGP is a lie. Yep. Just like the denialist wackosphere so consistently misrepresents the conclusions of scientific papers that it’s pretty much predictable that whenever they cite an actual legitimate paper their claims bear little or no relationship to what the paper was actually saying. This is undoubtedly why Murray is bloviating about things that have nothing whatsoever to do with the substance of the lawsuit, like the awesome “cooling” we’ve allegedly experienced in the past 17 years! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/27 "2014-07-04T15:57:57Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > I guess some of the climate change deniers may really believe the shit they spout. Or else does he really think he can provide proof that global warming isn’t real? I don’t think he’s trying to show that global warming isn’t real. It is. It is controlled by the sun and it has been happening since the Earth formed. I imagine he’s going to provide proof that the claims that global warming is caused by humans are bullshit, in which case, he’s gonna win. And good for him for having the balls to stand up to the EPA, which needs to be abolished yesterday, if not earlier. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/28 "2014-07-04T16:07:56Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I don’t think he’s trying to show that global warming isn’t real. It is. It is controlled by the sun and it has been happening since the Earth formed. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/_gIi7b6JMms/maxresdefault.jpg "Qi Klaxon") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gIi7b6JMms) -QI Klaxon blaring.- Oh my. still a misconception fed by sources that do not deserve any attention. > **[Sun & climate: moving in opposite directions](https://skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming-advanced.htm)** > > \In the last 35 years of global warming, the sun has shown a slight cooling trend. Sun and climate have been going in opposite directions.\ > [@](#): > > In the last 35 years of global warming, the sun has shown a slight cooling trend. Sun and climate have been going in opposite directions. In the past century, the Sun can explain some of the increase in global temperatures, but a relatively small amount. > > … > > As illustrated above, neither direct nor indirect solar influences can explain a significant amount of the global warming over the past century, and certainly not over the past 30 years. As Ray Pierrehumbert said about solar warming, > > ``` > “That’s a coffin with so many nails in it already that the hard part is finding a place to hammer in a new one.” > > ``` > [@Clothahump](#): > > I imagine he’s going to provide proof that the claims that global warming is caused by humans are bullshit, in which case, he’s gonna win. QI klaxon breaks… Oh, my, not even wrong, if he does the judge will dismiss him as the lawsuits are not about that. > [@Clothahump](#): > > And good for him for having the balls to stand up to the EPA, which needs to be abolished yesterday, if not earlier. Only in your dreams, when you are not even wrong it is folly to think anything you are claiming here will ever come to pass. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/29 "2014-07-04T19:59:39Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I imagine he’s going to provide proof that the claims that global warming is caused by humans are bullshit, in which case, he’s gonna win. And good for him for having the balls to stand up to the EPA, which needs to be abolished yesterday, if not earlier. [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=727585) shows some pretty prominent oil companies have publicly stated that AGW is caused at least in part, if not largely, by human activity. If it’s BS like you said then why are they are board? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/30 "2014-07-04T22:11:32Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I don’t think he’s trying to show that global warming isn’t real. It is. It is controlled by the sun and it has been happening since the Earth formed. > > I imagine he’s going to provide proof that the claims that global warming is caused by humans are bullshit, in which case, he’s gonna win. And good for him for having the balls to stand up to the EPA, which needs to be abolished yesterday, if not earlier. What a charming and highly scientific viewpoint! 😃 Any thoughts at all down there in Houston, TX, on the effects of CO2 in the atmosphere? Of it having suddenly spiked from the stable interglacial level of 285 ppm before the industrial revolution to 400 ppm today? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/31 "2015-06-12T03:55:05Z")
Bumping for update: > [@](#): > > Court Gives Obama a Climate Change Win > > JUNE 9, 2015 > > WASHINGTON — A federal court on Tuesday dismissed a lawsuit by the nation’s largest coal companies and 14 coal-producing states that sought to block one of President Obama’s signature climate change policies. > [@](#): > > All three circuit court judges agreed that the challenge was premature. > > “Petitioners are champing at the bit to challenge E.P.A.’s anticipated rule restricting carbon dioxide emissions from existing power plants,” Judge Brett Kavanaugh wrote in the opinion. “But E.P.A. has not yet issued a final rule. It has issued only a proposed rule. Petitioners nonetheless ask the court to jump into the fray now. They want us to do something that they candidly acknowledge we have never done before: review the legality of a proposed rule.” > > He concluded, “We deny the petitions for review and the petition for a writ of prohibition because the complained-of agency action is not final.” > > Liz Purchia, a spokeswoman for the agency, wrote in a statement, “E.P.A. is pleased that the court has denied the challenges to our proposed Clean Power Plan and confirmed our assessment that they are premature.” > > Environmentalists also cheered the decision. “The first legal challenge to the Clean Power Plan failed today, and others the polluters will trot out should fail as well,” said David Doniger, the head of the climate and clean air program for the Natural Resources Defense Council, an advocacy group. > > But litigants are already preparing to file a new suit once the rule is put into effect. > > “We are obviously disappointed with the court’s ruling today, but we still think we have a compelling case that the rule is unlawful,” said Patrick Morrisey, the attorney general of West Virginia, who led oral arguments against the rule. “As the court recognized, the rule will be final very soon, and we look forward to continuing to press the issue. We will continue to take every available step to protect our citizens and the State of West Virginia from this unlawful power grab by Washington bureaucrats.” So, it is not over yet, but really? They still think that it was a good idea to challenge a rule that was not made yet? And why is it that the money wasted in that dumb effort is not a problem for the state governors that supported this lawsuit? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/32 "2015-06-12T14:39:40Z")
Shouldn’t competent lawyers know that you can’t challenge a rule that’s still just a proposal? Was this some sort of dumb publicity ploy or did they believe that they could set a precedent of stopping rules in the proposal stage? Could they have been hoping to get a friendly judge? I don’t know enough to know if there’s any randomness in which judges hear these types of cases or if it’s predictable. ---
**Author:** ![barfridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de053/32.png) [@barfridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barfridge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/33 "2015-06-14T01:57:58Z")
Seems quite a few folks on this thread are yet to fully appreciate the wide ranging effects of and damage to real science done by the CAGW scammers. The climate" industry" now depends on misdirection, misinformation and hiding from the facts to support a global connection to billions of taxpayers dollars. Clearly it is not in the industry’s interests to stop calling sceptics and noteworthy scientists “deniers” any more than it is in their interest to acknowledge that there has been no global warming now for nearly two decades. It’s time to allow this inflated ball of hot lies to quietly cool while letting the earth go about the business as usual stuff of refusing to warm, even while co2( the alleged but unproven cause of historic warming) goes on increasing crop yields and greening the planet. Cheer up, save face, find a new hobby. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/34 "2015-06-14T02:31:26Z")
> [@barfridge](#): > > Seems quite a few folks on this thread are yet to fully appreciate the wide ranging effects of and damage to real science done by the CAGW scammers. The climate" industry" now depends on misdirection, misinformation and hiding from the facts to support a global connection to billions of taxpayers dollars. > Clearly it is not in the industry’s interests to stop calling sceptics and noteworthy scientists “deniers” any more than it is in their interest to acknowledge that there has been no global warming now for nearly two decades. > It’s time to allow this inflated ball of hot lies to quietly cool while letting the earth go about the business as usual stuff of refusing to warm, even while co2( the alleged but unproven cause of historic warming) goes on increasing crop yields and greening the planet. > Cheer up, save face, find a new hobby. Except for all of that overwhelming scientific evidence stuff, right? 😛 How’s that law suit going? ---
**Author:** ![barfridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de053/32.png) [@barfridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barfridge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/35 "2015-06-14T02:42:28Z")
Actually XT, there has not been any convincing evidence that increased co2 has been the cause of step increases in global temp ( the last one ceased in the late 90s), rather, plenty of strong reasons to doubt this. If you have an interest in the science , there are good sites with credible and very thorough considerations of the history and details of this fascinating subject. Anthony Watts is just one of many. Science is not done by vote, or consensus, neither is the relentless pursuit of facts in any way improved by belief one way or another. I maintain that anyone who argues that the climate science cagw story is in any way “settled” just doesn’t understand science. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/36 "2015-06-14T02:49:05Z")
> [@barfridge](#): > > Seems quite a few folks on this thread are yet to fully appreciate the wide ranging effects of and damage to real science done by the CAGW scammers. The climate" industry" now depends on misdirection, misinformation and hiding from the facts to support a global connection to billions of taxpayers dollars. > Clearly it is not in the industry’s interests to stop calling sceptics and noteworthy scientists “deniers” any more than it is in their interest to acknowledge that there has been no global warming now for nearly two decades. [old fashion scratched record noice] Full Stop here. [That excuse ended when 2014 was declared the hottest year on record, Breaking 2005 and 2010 highs](http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/01/16/3612351/noaa-nasa-2014-hottest-year-on-record/), of course the denier media never explains that properly to many of their viewers and readers. And it got worse as new study found that there was no “pause” in the warming. > **[No Pause in Global Warming](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/)** > > A new study suggests that global warming continues to steadily increase > [@](#): > > The global warming hiatus—a decade-plus slowdown in warming—could be chalked up to some buoys, a few extra years of data and a couple buckets of seawater. > > That’s the finding of a new study published on Thursday in Science, which uses updated information about how temperature is recorded, particularly at sea, to take a second look at the global average temperature. The findings show a slight but notable increase in that average temperature, putting a dent in the idea that global warming has slowed over the past 15 years, a trend highlighted in the most recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report. > > The term “ global warming hiatus” is a bit of a misnomer. It refers to a period of slower surface warming in the wake of the 1997-98 super El Niño compared to the previous decades. However, make no mistake, the globe’s average temperature has still risen over that period (including record heat in 2014) and temperatures now are the hottest they’ve been since recordkeeping began in the 1880s. So let’s call it what it really is: a slowdown, not a disappearance of global warming. > A revised analysis shows a slight recent uptick in the global average temperature. Credit: NOAA National Centers for Environmental Information > > The new findings show that even the concept of the slowdown could be overstated. > > “There is no slowdown in global warming,” Russell Vose, the head of the climate science division at the National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI), said. “Or stated differently, the trend over the past decade and half is in line with the trend since 1950.” It is clear what is going on, it is politics the reason for the denial, and this is demonstrated when scientists that are Republicans end up agreeing with the consensus when they check the evidence. (Dr. Barry Bickmore - How to Avoid the Truth About Climate Change. Bickmore is a conservative Republican scientist from BYU and even a Mormon) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/37 "2015-06-14T02:51:20Z")
> [@barfridge](#): > > Actually XT, there has not been any convincing evidence that increased co2 has been the cause of step increases in global temp ( the last one ceased in the late 90s), rather, plenty of strong reasons to doubt this. If you have an interest in the science , there are good sites with credible and very thorough considerations of the history and details of this fascinating subject. Anthony Watts is just one of many. > Science is not done by vote, or consensus, neither is the relentless pursuit of facts in any way improved by belief one way or another. I maintain that anyone who argues that the climate science cagw story is in any way “settled” just doesn’t understand science. > Cheers Actually, barfridge, we’ve debated this subject on this board a metric boatload of times and I encourage YOU to do some searching to see the various permutations. THIS (semi-zombie) thread isn’t really the place to debate this subject or beat this dead horse again, however. If you feel you have any new or interesting science based information about global climate change feel free to start a new thread on it. I warn you, however, there are some very knowledgeable 'dopers (who aren’t me) on this board and it has not gone well for previous posters on the theme you touched on. However, if you feel you have right on your side then go for it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/38 "2015-06-14T02:56:32Z")
> [@barfridge](#): > > Actually XT, there has not been any convincing evidence that increased co2 has been the cause of step increases in global temp ( the last one ceased in the late 90s), rather, plenty of strong reasons to doubt this. If you have an interest in the science , there are good sites with credible and very thorough considerations of the history and details of this fascinating subject. Anthony Watts is just one of many. Another Full Stop. Anthony Watts is a very unreliable narrator. > **[Anthony Watts](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anthony_Watts)** > > Willard Anthony Watts (1958–) is a former radio and TV weatherman and notable global warming denier. He has joined the denialist Heartland Institute as senior fellow for environment and climate.\[1\] He claims to have subscribed to AGW years ago before... > [@](#): > > The Surface Stations Project > > Ironically, Watts has done more to strengthen the scientific evidence for AGW than refute it. A libertarian think tank, the Heartland Institute, published his “academic” work based on the Surface Stations data claiming that NOAA’s weather stations did not meet regulatory code and had collected unreliable data that exaggerated maximum temperatures.[4] Watts’ data (collected by volunteers) consists only of pictures and information about the locations and surroundings of weather stations. Watts then assumed that poorly-located stations had to overstate the global warming trend, without bothering to do any of that annoying and tedious stuff like statistical analysis. A study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research - Atmospheres did analyze the data, and found that the stations Watts flagged as unreliable were indeed unreliable. They had actually underestimated the maximum temperatures.[5] Good catch, Anthony! The authors further pointed out that “photos and site surveys do not preclude the need for data analysis.” (Zing!) > > In 2011 Watts claimed to have new “research” that would prove the unreliability of the weather stations and shake the very foundations of AGW theory. In fact, when the paper was finally released, it came to essentially the same conclusion as the aforementioned JGR study: minimum temperatures at a number of stations were biased slightly upward and maximum temperatures biased slightly downward, thus canceling out the bias when averaged.[6] > > BESTed > > In March of 2011, Anthony Watts appeared to stake his entire stance on the reliability of surface temperature data on a single upcoming study: the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature Study (BEST), an independent temperature record to be constructed using over 39,000 unique stations. On March 6th, Watts said on his blog: > > > [@](#): > > > > … I’m prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong. I’m taking this bold step because the method has promise. So let’s not pay attention to the little yippers who want to tear it down before they even see the results. > > However, when BEST’s results confirmed the reliability of preexisting surface temperature records, Watts backpedaled.[7] Apparently, he was only willing to stake his claims on an independent study if it came to the conclusion he wanted. Ever since he refused to acknowledge how wrong he is (and he is lately godwinizing the discussion by not removing articles that accuse the scientists of being Nazis.) that one should not even give him the time of day. ---
**Author:** ![barfridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de053/32.png) [@barfridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barfridge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/39 "2015-06-14T03:17:05Z")
As a newbie to this board I am impressed that I can get such quick responses. thanks for including me. Having been a member of various other science related blogs and forums for many years , I appreciate that people will have their opinions, we all have bias and occasionaly a breakthrough moment may occur, though generally posters with strong opinions are welded to them. As a scientist ( not in the climate field ), I enjoy taking whatever advantage I can from the data now freely available on the web. Care of course must be taken when accepting or rejecting ideas and or data. Some sites are clearly better than others. I have found that the Watts site steers mostly clear of shallow opinionated material in favour of well documented studies, with digressions and opinion seeded where useful. The Nova site is very good, lots of links, plenty of data, a broad spread of up to date science and a willingness to go to the nub. I still find it odd that well intentioned people still find the use of the term “denier” of value. It is meaningless really. Sceptics of the CAGW theory don’t deny there is climate change at all. Nor do they deny that co2 is a greenhouse gas. The name calling stuff is unhelpful at best. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515/40 "2015-06-14T03:31:04Z")
> [@barfridge](#): > > As a newbie to this board I am impressed that I can get such quick responses. thanks for including me. > Having been a member of various other science related blogs and forums for many years , I appreciate that people will have their opinions, we all have bias and occasionaly a breakthrough moment may occur, though generally posters with strong opinions are welded to them. > As a scientist ( not in the climate field ), I enjoy taking whatever advantage I can from the data now freely available on the web. Care of course must be taken when accepting or rejecting ideas and or data. Some sites are clearly better than others. > I have found that the Watts site steers mostly clear of shallow opinionated material in favour of well documented studies, with digressions and opinion seeded where useful. The Nova site is very good, lots of links, plenty of data, a broad spread of up to date science and a willingness to go to the nub. > I still find it odd that well intentioned people still find the use of the term “denier” of value. It is meaningless really. Sceptics of the CAGW theory don’t deny there is climate change at all. Nor do they deny that co2 is a greenhouse gas. The name calling stuff is unhelpful at best. Previous experience has told me that science is jettisoned when many climate deniers in your group are in the danger to hear the facts. I have seen it many times before and accepting science does not mean much when one is defending and ignoring what trash pushers like Anthony Watts are doing. In any case this issue is not based on just opinions anyhow. Arctic amplification, for example, (The increased warming in the polar regions) was predicted a long time ago and the melting of cap ice is accelerating, there is no opinion there, that is a fact. > **[Time-lapse proof of extreme ice loss](https://www.ted.com/talks/james_balog_time_lapse_proof_of_extreme_ice_loss)** > > Photographer James Balog shares new image sequences from the Extreme Ice Survey, a network of time-lapse cameras recording glaciers receding at an alarming rate, some of the most vivid evidence yet of climate change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coal-company-ceo-to-sue-epa-over-global-warming-lying/690515.md?page=3)