# Cobb and Badnarik to ask for Ohio recount **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404 "2004-11-12T17:08:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/1 "2004-11-12T17:08:09Z")
Apparently the Greens and Libertarians are going to go where the Dems do not dare and [request a recount in Ohio](http://www.votecobb.org/) if they can raise the required fee through donations at [their websites](http://badnarik.org/). So, is this a good idea given the [confusing election results](http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/The_unexplained_exit_poll_discrepancy_v00k.pdf)? Or just more attention-grabbing? Also, is this something only a third party could do without immediately being branded “sore losers”? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/2 "2004-11-12T17:22:47Z")
Well. 25 bucks for the sake of curiosity. I chose to donate via Cobb versus Badnarik. I figure I’ll be getting a more interesting stream of junk mail by entering my personal information on the green site. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/3 "2004-11-12T17:27:13Z")
Well, I actually voted for Badnarik, but I don’t see that a recount in Ohio is going to be very informative. However, if they can raise the money (probably from disgruntled Dems still smarting over the election) then more power to them I say. Myself I think I’ll keep my money and simply await developments. Besides, I’m ALREADY on the Libertarians mail lists since I did some volunteer work for them this summer. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/4 "2004-11-12T17:27:40Z")
Gotta admit that I’m unsure of their motivations here. Are the leaders of the Green and Libertarian parties doing this to take a flyer on the slim chance that Ohio’s electoral votes can end up with Kerry? Because if it’s not that I’m mystified. That one hell of a lot of money to devote to a principle for parties that ain’t exactly rolling in the dough. Nonetheless…$50 to the Libertarians for me. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/5 "2004-11-12T17:39:58Z")
Well, if they are just going to spend the money on a recount, I think the motivation is good will and maybe a little PR. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/6 "2004-11-12T17:41:58Z")
Maybe they hope that if voting irregularities can be shown to have perhaps changed the outcome of the election _again_, we will actually get some voting reform. I’d like us to pick one method of voting, one method of determining if votes count, each vote to have a paper trail, all across the US. It’ll be cheaper and more fair. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/7 "2004-11-12T17:58:14Z")
Just how much does a recount cost? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/8 "2004-11-12T18:05:04Z")
The Cobb and Badnarik campaigns are in the process of raising the required fee, estimated at $113,000, for a complete recount in all 11,000 precincts in Ohio. [http://web.greens.org/c/cobb/supporters.cgi?function=donate](http://web.greens.org/c/cobb/supporters.cgi?function=donate) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/9 "2004-11-12T18:32:31Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Maybe they hope that if voting irregularities can be shown to have perhaps changed the outcome of the election _again_, we will actually get some voting reform. I’d like us to pick one method of voting, one method of determining if votes count, each vote to have a paper trail, all across the US. It’ll be cheaper and more fair. I’d like to see some changes too. I think the methods and regulations should be uniform and consistent across the board. But, on the other hand I also feel that now the election is over, let it be. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/10 "2004-11-12T19:54:59Z")
Interesting. This raises a fascinating Republican strategy question. If their analysis is that there’s, say, a 0.1% (one in a thousand) chance that the Ohio recount would change the result, do they buy some insurance by requesting a recount in Wisconsin? (Assuming it’s not too late, of course.) (Kerry won WI by a smaller margin than Bush won OH, and if the WI recount changed the result in that state, a possible OH result switch wouldn’t matter.) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/11 "2004-11-12T20:34:19Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > So, is this a good idea given the [confusing election results](http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/The_unexplained_exit_poll_discrepancy_v00k.pdf)? What is so confusing about ‘Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes?’ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/12 "2004-11-12T20:42:06Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > What is so confusing about ‘Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes?’ What is confusing is that in any election not involving George W Bush, the exit polls were very close to the final vote tally. In elections involving George W Bush, exit polls were very close to the final vote tally except in battleground states and in those instances the shift between exit polls and final tallies is nearly universally in Bush’s favor and outside the range of statistical likelihood. If you believe this is pure chance, I’ve got some WMDs to sell you. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/13 "2004-11-12T20:51:23Z")
Ah, once again the ‘we trust polls more than certified votes’ routine. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/14 "2004-11-12T21:54:07Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ah, once again the ‘we trust polls more than certified votes’ routine. Carry on. Well, exit polls are usually how the UN and such organizations try and monitor elections in other countries to detect corruption and such. So if their really is a large discrepancy in the exit polls, I’d say its worth looking into. I’d be fairly certain that even if such discrepancies exist, they’re probably not due to some widespread vote rigging scheme, but just systematic problems with how the exit polls are conducted, or with how the certified votes are tallied. But whatever the problem, its worth investigating before the next election so that the system can continue to be improved. Any differences in the recount is unlikely to give Kerry an extra 100,000 votes anyways, so I doubt that Cobb and Badnarik are hoping to overturn the election. But fixing problems with the current vote-counting system is worthwhile in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/15 "2004-11-12T23:15:57Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What is confusing is that in any election not involving George W Bush, the exit polls were very close to the final vote tally. In elections involving George W Bush, exit polls were very close to the final vote tally except in battleground states and in those instances the shift between exit polls and final tallies is nearly universally in Bush’s favor and outside the range of statistical likelihood. If you believe this is pure chance, I’ve got some WMDs to sell you. I posted [this](http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0411/S00140.htm) link in another thread, but that thread might be dieing so thought I’d post it here too for you Bob. Just a few quick things…read through the whole thing if you like to get more detail. > [@](#): > > VOTING MACHINES AND THE UNDERESTIMATE > OF THE BUSH VOTE > CALTECH/MIT > VOTING TECHNOLOGY PROJECT > NOVEMBER 9, 2004 > VIEW ORIGINAL PDF VERSION > Voting Machines and the Underestimate of the Bush Vote > > Summary > > 1. A series of claims have been made in recent days alleging that discrepancies between exit poll results and the presidential vote in certain states provides evidence of malfeasance in those states. These claims seem to be concentrated on states using electronic voting systems. > > 2. Exit polls predicted a significantly greater vote for Kerry nationwide than the official returns confirmed, but there is not any apparent systematic bias when we take this same analysis to the state level. > > 3. Analysis of deviations between the exit polls and the official returns show no particular patterns for states using electronic voting; nor does this analysis reveal any patterns for states using other forms of voting systems. > > 4. We conclude that there is no evidence, based on exit polls, that electronic voting machines were used to steal the 2004 election for President Bush. > [@](#): > > Conclusion > > There is no evidence that electronic voting machines were used to steal the 2004 election for George Bush. The “facts” that are being circulated on the Internet appear to be selectively chosen to make the point. Much of that analysis appears to rest on early exit poll results, which were bound to be highly volatile, given the nature of exit poll methodology. > > This episode of trying to rely on the exit polls to verify the truthfulness of voting machines illustrates the weakness of this approach — an approach that had gained currency among electronic voting opponents before the November election. Even when they work well, exit polls are too imprecise to lay against the official count, unless every voter is included in the exit poll. The following exchange between a questioner in an on-line chat and Steve Coll, Managing Editor of the Washington Post, sums up the problem nicely: > Q: Is anyone going to correlate exit-poll errors with precincts that use the new electronic voting machines to see if there’s a pattern, to wit: in precincts where there’s no paper trail and no way of conducting a recount, Bush outdid expectations; in other precincts, results more or less matched exit polls? I’m not saying this is the case, but as someone who felt slimed by Florida in 2000, I’d like someone to pause long enough (it’s less than 24 hours after the polls closed!) to make sure we’re not seeing another stolen election. I’d rather not have to wait until Jeffrey Toobin’s next book to discover I’ve been slimed again. > A: Well, I don’t want to write off legitimate questions about the integrity of the voting system. But turn the question around: Which is more likely – that an exit > > 5 > > polling system that has been consistently wrong and troubled turned out to be wrong and troubled again, or that a vast conspiracy carried out by scores and scores of county and state election officials was successfully carried off to distort millions of American votes? I think the Kerry campaign concluded that the former is what happened. But we’ll keep our eyes open for hard evidence of abuse, and we won’t be afraid to investigate if we see something significant. -XT ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/16 "2004-11-13T19:56:42Z")
Even if the recount further shows Bush won, I think it has an additional benefit of keeping the issues that keep coming up each election on the front burner. I am certain that a recount will uncover more cases of foul ups and malfeasance. Not on a grand scale, but enough to remind the public and our elected officials that there still is a long way to go to fix the system. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/17 "2004-11-14T17:18:34Z")
I would assume first that the call by these two for a recount might have more to do with ballot inclusiveness/matching funds for these two parties in the state of Ohio than any great moral imperative to ensure a stable democracy laa de doo daa. Im not sure, but if the Libs and Greens got less than a certain percentage, they may stand to lose automatic ballot qualification in Ohio, forcing them to go the rounds and get signatures and all that in Ohio the next time. Thats probalby what the recount is for. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/18 "2004-11-15T17:13:13Z")
They’ve reached 1000 (well, as of last night they were 4k shy, so I suspect they’ve acheived their fundraising goal. Has anyone heard if they’ve taken any action yet? ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/19 "2004-11-15T19:14:41Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Gotta admit that I’m unsure of their motivations here. Are the leaders of the Green and Libertarian parties doing this to take a flyer on the slim chance that Ohio’s electoral votes can end up with Kerry? I suspect the motivation is “Any press is good press.” ; that they see it as a way to get the {Libertarian | Green} party mentioned a little more on the nightly news. But hey, I’m cynical that way. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404/20 "2004-11-15T19:18:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I posted [this](http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0411/S00140.htm) link in another thread, but that thread might be dieing so thought I’d post it here too for you Bob. Thank you xtisme (by the way, what does that username mean?). I’m digesting it and doing what research I can find time to do. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cobb-and-badnarik-to-ask-for-ohio-recount/274404.md?page=2)