# Coffee is HOT, you moron!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 22, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132 "2004-12-22T07:02:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/81 "2004-12-22T23:38:14Z")
> [@Maureen](#):
>
> It’s got nothing to do with McDonald’s ability to pay.
So what does it have to do with? Was the award excessive or not?
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### Author:  [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/82 "2004-12-22T23:45:12Z")
> [@Dag Otto](#):
>
> So what does it have to do with? Was the award excessive or not?
And you’re accusing me of reading comprehension problems? Yes. Yes, it was excessive. Medical fees and court and attorney fees. Anything else is saying that a company is responsible for consumer idiocy. Which they are not.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/83 "2004-12-22T23:48:00Z")
has to do with the actual jury award mentioned.
IRC, the original award was 4.something million dollars. That award was redused to 400 thousand by the judge. Again, IIRC.
But I was under the impression that it was reduced because the judge found it excessive, not because he found contributory neglegence. Can one of our legal eagles answer this one? Isn’t contributory neglegence a matter for the jury to decide?
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/84 "2004-12-22T23:49:03Z")
Please forgive my heinous spelling…
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/85 "2004-12-23T00:25:08Z")
> [@Maureen](#):
>
> And you’re accusing me of reading comprehension problems? Yes. Yes, it was excessive. Medical fees and court and attorney fees. Anything else is saying that a company is responsible for consumer idiocy. Which they are not.
Except that punitive damages SHOULD be associated with a company’s ability to pay. The point of punitive damages is to make the company suffer enough to have an econonic incentive to change their policy. There’s no point in slapping McDonald’s with $10,000 in punitive damages.
Oh, and for those of you who keep complaining about all the analogies in this thread, just think of any object which, if used carelessly, might hurt you, and imagine if it were constructed so that, if used with the same level of carelessness, might hurt you MUCH MUCH MUCH more.
If I misuse a kitchen knife, I expect to be cut and bleed. What if instead I cut off 3 fingers? or get gangrene? do I have no right to sue, because it was my fault for misusing it?
If I misuse rat poison and accidentally ingest a very tiny amount of it, I expect to get a bit sick. What if I instead instantly die. Do my heirs have no right to sue, because it was my fault for accidentally ingesting a very tiny amount of it?
If I misuse a bicycle by crashing into a wall, I expect to be injured. If instead the bike falls apart and parts of it impale my torso, do I have no right to sue, because it was my fault for crashing into the wall?
What’s so wrong with these analogies?
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### Author:  [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/86 "2004-12-23T01:00:54Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#):
>
> What bugs me about the case is not so much the right or wrong of it, but the way it is held up as some egregious example of litigousness gone mad, which it clearly is not.
>
> I would ask this, what if she had spilled her coffe on herself in a perfectly normal situation. At the table in the restaurant and gotten third degre burns. Surely we have all spilled coffee or some other beverage at some time, it doesn’t make us all careless ninnies. But I wouldn’t expect third degree burns from spilled coffee…third degree is not a mild burn.
If she’d spilled it on her lap at a restaurant where it was sitting on a table, I would feel differently about it.
What’s bugged me about this case is that she had the cup of hot coffee in her lap with the lid off. She was just begging to be burned. Not as badly as she was burned, but burned.
It’s kinda common sense not to keep a cup of anything near your crotch with the lid off. If it’s a hot something, you’ve got to be some kind of moron to put it there.
I’ve a feeling that if she were a dude - born with an inclination to protect that general area - this never would’ve happened. 😛
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### Author:  [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/87 "2004-12-23T01:12:24Z")
> [@spooje](#):
>
> has to do with the actual jury award mentioned.
>
> IRC, the original award was 4.something million dollars. That award was redused to 400 thousand by the judge. Again, IIRC.
>
> But I was under the impression that it was reduced because the judge found it excessive, not because he found contributory neglegence. Can one of our legal eagles answer this one? Isn’t contributory neglegence a matter for the jury to decide?
The final settlement was not published, but thought to be in the 6-digit range. Given the amount of the verdict, MickeyDees would obviously have appealed, and my guess is that the plaintiff and attorney thought better of facing a prepared McD’s school of sharks.
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### Author:  [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/88 "2004-12-23T01:24:36Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#):
>
> Your experience is not universal, and a lot of other intelligent, reasonable people did NOT see it your way. So one should at least consider that the other view has some merit.
There’s no reason to stop here - I’d strongly consider posting this in damn near every thread here. Please start with the “Bush is a complete and total idiot/Bush is our one and only savior” threads and expand outward.
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### Author:  [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/89 "2004-12-23T01:25:54Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> I misuse a kitchen knife…What if instead I cut off 3 fingers? or get gangrene? do I have no right to sue, because it was my fault for misusing it?
Correct. You shouldn’t have the right to sue. That’ll teach you to be more careful with sharp objects. Objects, I might add, that are designed for the sole purpose of cutting through meat, flesh, bone and produce. In my opinion, any asshole who chops off three fingers with a knife and then expects a big pay day from Hoffritz would fall into the produce category.
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> (Ingested rat poison)…What if I instead instantly die. Do my heirs have no right to sue, because it was my fault for accidentally ingesting a very tiny amount of it?
What part of the word poison don’t you understand? You’re 2 for 2. No different than if you poured lye on your corn flakes & tried to take legal action against the Drano company.
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/90 "2004-12-23T01:39:36Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#):
>
> Correct. You shouldn’t have the right to sue. That’ll teach you to be more careful with sharp objects. Objects, I might add, that are designed for the sole purpose of cutting through meat, flesh, bone and produce. In my opinion, any asshole who chops off three fingers with a knife and then expects a big pay day from Hoffritz would fall into the produce category.
>
> What part of the word poison don’t you understand? You’re 2 for 2. No different than if you poured lye on your corn flakes & tried to take legal action against the Drano company.
Well, then, I guess we just disagree. Although I’m pretty sure that if rat poison was so poisonous that a tiny drop of it (ie, some brushes onto my hand, then later onto my food, then into my mouth) would kill a full-grown human, it sure as hell wouldn’t be sold in stores to the general public. And it would probably violate several international treaties.
What if we add into each example the hypothetical that:
-previous consumers had experienced the same problem and complained
-the manufacturers had research that indicated that the problem existed
-but they didn’t either change their policies or add warning labels
In other words, someone is selling cheapass knives which are fine as long as you always only cut food with them, but they have a manufacturing defect such that if you cut yourself, the lining of the knife will fall off, and the interior, which is made of cheap rusted crap, will infect you with gangrenous infected leprosy. And they know that this is a problem, and have received complaints from other people, and have refused to either change their practice or even print warnings. And you buy one of these knives, cut yourself, and instead of requiring a bandaid and (at worst) stitches, your hand gets all swollen and green and has to be amputated. And you think it would be wrong to sue in that case, because, after all, it was your own fault for cutting yourself.
Wow.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/91 "2004-12-23T01:42:01Z")
Pizza at 400 degrees? I doubt it.
The oven may be at that temperature, but the pizza never reaches it, it stays in the oven about 3 minutes at most (depending on the topping). Anyone who bakes at home knows that setting the oven at a high temperature speeds the cooking process for a “crisp outside but not too dry” result (something to do with thermodynamics that I already forgot).
If the pizza reaches 400 degrees the cheese would more than melt.
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### Author:  [@easy\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/easy_e)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/92 "2004-12-23T01:44:29Z")
As far as the size of the settlement, wasn’t it calculated to be McDonald’s revenues for selling one day’s worth of coffee? Or something like that?
I once spilled just-out-of-the-coffeemaker-hot water on my feet (long story–we were using this hot water to mop the floors prior to someone from corporate visiting). It was hot. In the time that it took me to get one of my shoes off, I ended up getting 2nd degree burns on the foot that still had the shoe on. But that was freshly brewed–we stored the coffee in carafes. I did not sue, though I made worker’s comp pay for my care.
We also had to monitor the temperature of our soups–we had lower (to prevent food poisoning) and upper (to prevent burns) limits.
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### Author:  [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/93 "2004-12-23T01:45:20Z")
Dammit, I’m not going to be able to go to McDonald’s tomorrow to check temperatures… looks like we’re going to get some snow and ice, and I’m not driving down there just to probe some coffee. (Which is bad, because I just baked about 6 dozen cookies to take there with me. Delightful, crispy, thin oatmeal raisin and oatmeal hazelnut dark chocolate chip. :()
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/94 "2004-12-23T02:09:35Z")
> [@Cinnamon Girl](#):
>
> :: sigh ::
>
> I could keep repeating reasonable explanations that I and others have already mentioned. But, what’s the point?
>
> Suffice it to say, all you’ve shown me is that kneejerk reaction is acceptable. The more heinous the injury and the deeper the pockets, the more easily justified to blame others for carelessness and lack of common sense.
>
> You’ve all been wooshed. ☹
>
> Enjoy your tepid coffee.
Just who exactly is kneejerking here? We’ve provided you with sites and facts about the case, as well as info on burns and various safety issues. Yet you keep INSISTING that you’re right, evidence to the contrary be damned.
According to one of the sites mentioned:
> [@](#):
>
> Older adults have thinner skin, so hot liquids cause deeper burns with even brief exposure. Their ability to feel heat may be decreased due to certain medical conditions or medications. Older adults may also have conditions that make them more prone to falls in the bathtub or shower or while carrying hot liquids.
[Stella Liebeck was 79.](http://corpreform.typepad.com/corpreform/indepth_articles/) Which made her even more suspectible to severe burns.
**Maureen** -to be fair, the reward WAS excessive, and it WAS partially her fault. Which was why it was later reduced upon appeal. The initial verdict was to hit McDonalds so hard in order to get it through to them that what happened was unacceptable.
What do **I** believe MickeyD’s should have done? Pay her medical expenses, which was all she wanted in the first place. She WAS injured on their property, by their product, which was hotter than it should have been.
For those who are still insisting that the burns should have been expected, do a google image search for “third degree burn.” It’s not just a “burn”, you have literally cooked your flesh.
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### Author:  [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/95 "2004-12-23T02:24:17Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#):
>
> If the pizza reaches 400 degrees the cheese would more than melt.
What? Are you saying that a pizza in a 400F oven isn’t automatically 400F itself? Something about that it goes into the oven cold and takes some amount of time to heat up? And that you want the oven hotter than the pizza to oh, say, cook the pizza?
That’s not what happens when I cook a turkey! (OK, my wife not me. But I would if she wasn’t there. OK, I wouldn’t. I’d eat cold cereal for Thanksgiving.) Anyway, **BoringMom** puts the turkey in a 350F oven and instantly the Turkey is 350F! Hmm. I am now being corrected. Apparently, the turkey roasts for 5 hours and barely gets up to 160F. So oddly enough, you must be correct! Food is NOT as hot as the oven. So there are no places selling 400F pizza? Rats. I was going to try the lawsuit suggested above.
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### Author:  [@SlickRoenick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlickRoenick)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/96 "2004-12-23T02:57:04Z")
The title reminds me of this one old guy that i work with and hate at the same time. He put a big cup of coffee up to his mouth and, even though my back was towards him, i could instantly tell he tried to chug the contents. Immediately he spit it up all over himself and frantically looked for napkins to clean himself up. I had to hold my laughter in. He apologized for “not remembering how to drink hot liquids.” Whatever the hell that means.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/97 "2004-12-23T03:01:07Z")
> [@BoringDad](#):
>
> What? Are you saying that a pizza in a 400F oven isn’t automatically 400F itself? Something about that it goes into the oven cold and takes some amount of time to heat up? And that you want the oven hotter than the pizza to oh, say, cook the pizza?
>
> That’s not what happens when I cook a turkey! (OK, my wife not me. But I would if she wasn’t there. OK, I wouldn’t. I’d eat cold cereal for Thanksgiving.) Anyway, **BoringMom** puts the turkey in a 350F oven and instantly the Turkey is 350F! Hmm. I am now being corrected. Apparently, the turkey roasts for 5 hours and barely gets up to 160F. So oddly enough, you must be correct! Food is NOT as hot as the oven. So there are no places selling 400F pizza? Rats. I was going to try the lawsuit suggested above.
Well, you could try the classic Neapolitan Maneuver, that is sticking your head in the oven… at pizza-cooking temperature.\* 😃
\*Do not try this.
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### Author:  [@Cinnamon\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Girl)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/98 "2004-12-23T03:36:51Z")
Well, I’m back. Unfortunately, due to extenuating circumstances (closing early, snow emergency) I wasn’t able to complete my experiment. I did stick a thermometer (but not our digital) into the stream of coffee coming out of the basket as it was brewing, so the test was not valid. If my thermometer is correct (I did not calibrate it) and can measure a stream properly w/out being dunked what was coming out of the basket was approximately 185 º F. However, the brewer (which I didn’t have time to calibrate) was reading the water in the tank at 205 º F. Further research is necessary.
From the same brewer unit, I retrieved water from the shuttle which measured in the cup at 195º F using the same thermometer (accuracy untested). Exactly as we serve it when serving tea. The cup was very hot to the touch. I took a sip of it. It was very hot by my standards. Not undrinkable but not an altogether pleasant feeling either. It slightly singed my tongue. Of course, since our filtered water has little to no taste, this method did not determine whether I could still taste liquid this hot (although my nose would have certainly aided the process). I blew on the surface of the water (a common solution), but was unable to obtain a valid measurement of the change. Another sip. The water at the surface was noticeably cooler, but still pretty hot by my standards. Slightly more desireable. I would have continued by waiting the proscribed 4 minutes it takes to steep tea, but work interrupted my experiment.
A cup of coffee which poured out of the urn, freshly brewed, measured between 180º F and 185º F. It was easily drinkable by me and tasted exactly as I expected (knowing what I brewed). Within a few minutes sitting on the counter uncovered, the temperature had lowered to 175º F. It still tasted okay. At one half hour, the temp measured between 130º F and 135º F. Frankly, it sucked. IMHO. I could still drink it because I’m obsessed. But it wasn’t all that pleasurable.
Sorry I couldn’t get a better snapshot, but it was an atypical night. A night for dealing with more pressing matters, not experimenting with coffee. I would like to add, though, that I see this as an educational experience. It is pretty important to me to learn everything I can about my job. This includes understanding and calibrating equipment, determining the effects on our product by preparation, time and method of delivery, and a myriad of other bits of information regarded as entirely useless by most of my co-workers. They thought I was nuts, frankly. What can I say? I’m a coffee geek.
So, this little pit isn’t entirely fruitless. 🙂
Going for dinner, more later.
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### Author:  [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/99 "2004-12-23T04:00:50Z")
> [@chaoticdonkey](#):
>
> Dammit, I’m not going to be able to go to McDonald’s tomorrow to check temperatures… looks like we’re going to get some snow and ice, and I’m not driving down there just to probe some coffee. (Which is bad, because I just baked about 6 dozen cookies to take there with me. Delightful, crispy, thin oatmeal raisin and oatmeal hazelnut dark chocolate chip. :()
Sssh! McD’s folks are reading these posts and all over the USA they are quietly lowering the temperatures in anticipation of a bunch of high capacity digital thermometer-wielding dopers. Wait a few days and surprise them.
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### Author:  [@Cherry2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cherry2000)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-is-hot-you-moron/281132/100 "2004-12-23T04:37:26Z")
Hmmm…just food for thought here…
Could not the fiber content of the clothing the woman in the Mickey D’s incident was wearing have contributed to the severity of her injuries? I have heard that there are certain things that flight attendants will not wear (such as nylon stockings and polyester) because the will cause more severe injuries in the event of a fire/crash. I also know from personal experience as a seamstress that you can burn the shit out of yourself while ironing certain fabrics because they conduct heat so rapidly and retain it so well.
Maybe someone with more knowledge than I of chemistry, etc. can elaborate on this. Anyway…just something to ponder…
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