# Coffee:Tea::Topology:Geometry wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494 "2005-01-24T23:26:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/21 "2005-01-26T02:27:57Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > The other two are clearly intending “topography”. Misuse on the part of speakers does _not_ make the use correct. This line of thought – that it’s a dichotomy between the outdoor life and the inner life of the mind – explains neither the misuse of the term on the part of the authors nor the specific choice of “geometry” as the contradistinction. Why not “academia” in general if that’s what they meant? I feel a bit dirty defending a text I don’t particularly agree with but: I don’t believe it’s fair to label as “misuse on the part of speakers” usage that is sanctioned by a leading dictionary. Secondly, I didn’t, at first, so much insist on the distinction between “outdoor life” and “inner life”, but between “real world” and “conceptual” concerns. I agree this line of reasoning would hold better if it was “topography” and not “topology”. I don’t question the choice of geometry, though, as the rigour that has been traditionally associated with it and its conceptual nature fits with the rest of the chart. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/22 "2005-01-26T02:36:25Z")
The editors of dictionaries aren’t infallable. Using topology as a synonym for topography needlessly makes the English language a less effective tool for communication. We already have a perfectly serviceable word for topography, namely topography. And topology already has a completely different meaning. Adding pointless ambiguity to the language just doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/23 "2005-01-26T02:58:13Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > Tsunamis are modelled by soliton solutions to wave equations. Solitons are highly dependent on the topology (math sense) of the medium in question. Yes, but tsunamis also interact with the surface of the land and its geological features, and I believe it was in this sense that the word “topology” was used in that quote. > [@](#): > > Misuse on the part of speakers does _not_ make the use correct. But keep in mind that while you and **Chronos** and **tim314** believe (adamantly, it seems) that this usage is incorrect, others do not. For example, from the [Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines “topology”](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=topology) as > [@](#): > > **1** [topographic](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=topographic) study of a particular place; specifically : the history of a region as indicated by its [topography](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=topography) And the [encarta.com dictionary](http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/topology.html) has a definition of “topology” as > [@](#): > > 1. study linking topography and time: the study of changes in topography that occur over time and, in particular, of how such changes taking place in a particular area affect the history of that area I grant you that it would certainly be a good thing if there was absolutely no confusion between the words “topology” and “topography”. But when definitions like the above show up in respected reference works, I think it’s a little hard to take someone to task for “misusing” the word topology. The English language evolves and while that may render it “a less effective tool for communication”, I think you have to acknowledge its changes–even if you don’t necessarily like them. “Misuse” today is standard usage tomorrow and dictionary editors and readers all have to scramble to keep up. Is it time to move this to GD? ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/24 "2005-01-26T03:10:24Z")
Oo! Oo! Can I play too? I brought the OED… > [@](#): > > 1. The scientific study of a particular locality: see quot. 1905(1). > > 1850 S. TYMMS Bury Wills (Camden) Introd. 12 The selection of wills…has been made more with a view to illustrate the peculiar customs and language of the period than the topology or genealogy of the district. > > 1902 Cassell’s Encycl. Dict. Suppl., Topology, the study of the places or localities in a given district. > > 1903 Cornh. Mag. Feb. 251 The fact that topology is not synonymous with topography, but bears the same relation to topography as geology does to geography. > > 1905 Q. Rev. Apr. 346 The comparatively new study of topology, the science by which, from the consideration of geographical facts about a locality, one can draw deductions as to its history. > > 1905 Spectator 10 June 856/1 We need a knowledge not only of topography, but…of that…sister science which has been christened ‘topology’ Er, and also the math-y bits that some folks study. As for coffee:topology:🍵geometry, the topologists I know drink coffee (even the Brits!) on a regular basis. I try not to associate with geometers because they’re always integrating things and I don’t feel that I measure up. Carry on. Tenebras ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/25 "2005-01-26T03:28:32Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > I don’t believe it’s fair to label as “misuse on the part of speakers” usage that is sanctioned by a leading dictionary. Secondly, I didn’t, at first, so much insist on the distinction between “outdoor life” and “inner life”, but between “real world” and “conceptual” concerns. I agree this line of reasoning would hold better if it was “topography” and not “topology”. I don’t question the choice of geometry, though, as the rigour that has been traditionally associated with it and its conceptual nature fits with the rest of the chart. > [@tim314](#): > > The editors of dictionaries aren’t infallable. > > Using topology as a synonym for topography needlessly makes the English language a less effective tool for communication. We already have a perfectly serviceable word for topography, namely topography. And topology already has a completely different meaning. Adding pointless ambiguity to the language just doesn’t make sense. Further, Merriam-Webster is a _descriptive_ rather than a _prescriptive_ dictionary. It tries to say how people use the language and smooths over the fact that people _mis_use it. As I’ve said before and will say again, “Merriam-Webster can suck it.” ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/26 "2005-01-26T03:32:46Z")
> [@Tenebras](#): > > Er, and also the math-y bits that some folks study. As for coffee:topology:🍵geometry, the topologists I know drink coffee (even the Brits!) on a regular basis. I try not to associate with geometers because they’re always integrating things and I don’t feel that I measure up. As I mentioned before, we’ve got plenty of both and they drink both. I’m by turns a topologist and a geometer, and I drink black coffee through the day and tea at teatime (M-Th). ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/27 "2005-01-26T04:27:31Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > As I mentioned before, we’ve got plenty of both and they drink both. I’m by turns a topologist and a geometer, and I drink black coffee through the day and tea at teatime (M-Th). Have you noticed any correlation in your own life? I mean, do you tend to drink coffee while topologizing, and tea while geometrizing? Given what all’s been said before, I think (if there’s anything to it at all) it’s a matter of conformity vs. nonconformity. Tea is conformist, coffee is nonconformist. Geometry is conformist, topology is nonconformist (being geometry without a metric). I’m not saying I agree with this analogy, I’m just guessing what the authors had in mind. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/28 "2005-01-26T05:17:29Z")
> [@Mathochist](#): > > Further, Merriam-Webster is a _descriptive_ rather than a _prescriptive_ dictionary. It tries to say how people use the language and smooths over the fact that people _mis_use it. As I’ve said before and will say again, “Merriam-Webster can suck it.” Yes, but the OED shows that “topology”, in a geographical context, goes back to at least 1850, which is more or less the time when Johann Benedict Listing coined the term in mathematics. I must disagree that “topology” as the study of changes in topography is a mis-use. However confusing, there seems to be enough serious usage to back up its legitimacy. Still, even if it _was_ a mis-use, being noted in pretty much all major dictionaries, I think the odds that the authors would mis-use the word in a rather arbitrary and un-scientific chart are non-negligible. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/29 "2005-01-26T05:36:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Tea is conformist, coffee is nonconformist. I dunno about that part, in the United States at least. Coffee is generally treated as the default hot drink here, and if you can get tea at all, it’s generally just by special arrangement. I notice, for instance, that my church never talks about “tea and donuts” after services. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/30 "2005-03-12T23:21:41Z")
I know I’m bumping an old thread, but I figured it would be more appropriate to add this information here than to start another thread. I have just received a response from Mr. Weinberg, which follows: > [@](#): > > was amused and delighted to receive your question. Please forgive the long delay in sending this reply. > > The list in The World of Caffeine called “The Great Duality” was compiled to suggestively present the contrasting associations attached to coffee and tea by the history and usage of these beverages. It was partly tongue-in-cheek; but the underlying disparities between these associations are manifest realities. > > Geometry (or, perhaps I should say, the elements of geometry exclusive of topology) is concerned with forms in space that are strictly defined in shape and extent. Topology is also concerned with forms in space, but considers these forms without regard to their shape or size. > > Geometry, therefore, considers forms that are well-defined in regard to particulars. As such, it accords with the traditions of tea, which, like the culture of the drawing room, with its quiet specificity, defined by the borders of manners and convention, expresses particularity and definitional specificity. Topology, though also a rigorous study, considers spatial forms in a freer aspect. Shape doesn’t matter, quantification doesn’t matter-- topology is only concerned with configurations of area and volume. As such, topology accords with the traditions of coffee, which express the unconstrained, fancy-free, fast and loose spirit of the coffeehouse: the bohemian, the adventurer, and unstudied conversational exchanges and outbursts of energy. > > I hope this answers your question. As a man with only rudimentary mathematical intelligence, whose collegiate study of mathematics reached no further than second year honors calculus, I am delighted to have been placed in the position of expositing mathematical matters to outstanding scholars such as the faculty members of Yale University. What a treat for me! I can only hope that, in framing this reply, I have not made a complete fool of myself in your eyes. > > Again, this list was meant to be fun, not deadly earnest. More or less as speculated, but still understandably confusing to a professional mathematician to see “in the wild”. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494/31 "2005-03-20T22:18:54Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I thought it was just a donut joke. The torus is something you hear a lot about in topology, donuts are dunked in coffee. Now the authors are having a good laugh at making you all philosophize so deeply about it. **ultrafilter** got the joke. > > **antechinus** , that’s what you get for being upside-down. 🙂 No…it looks like doughnuts had nothing to do with it. 🙂 > [@Weinberg](#): > > Geometry, therefore, considers forms that are well-defined in regard to particulars. As such, it accords with the traditions of tea, which, like the culture of the drawing room, with its quiet specificity, defined by the borders of manners and convention, expresses particularity and definitional specificity. Topology, though also a rigorous study, considers spatial forms in a freer aspect. Shape doesn’t matter, quantification doesn’t matter-- topology is only concerned with configurations of area and volume. As such, topology accords with the traditions of coffee, which express the unconstrained, fancy-free, fast and loose spirit of the coffeehouse: the bohemian, the adventurer, and unstudied conversational exchanges and outbursts of energy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coffee-tea-topology-geometry-wtf/286494.md?page=1)