# Coldfire -- Not a warning my eye. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008 "2003-12-09T20:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/103 "2003-12-10T07:10:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by margin \* > \*\* > > I gotta love the idea of somebody saying that the MS. boards are female only. My, my, my. That’s worthy of Christina Hoff-Summers. \*\* - “the Ms. boards are female only” - “all sex is rape” Yeah, that’s really the fucking same thing. I mean, I’m sorry I got a fact wrong, I must have confused the Ms. boards with some other feminist webboard that _is_ for ladies only. But this could lead to enlightenment…if you have to be a “feminist” to register there, do any men count? What does count as feminist to post there? Do I count, as a libertarian male? Can I get in as a metaphysical realist, or do I have to embrace the tenets of gender construction, relativism and postmodernism? Am I disqualified completely because I own a couple porno mags? Inquiring minds want to know. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/104 "2003-12-10T07:19:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat. - Rebecca West, 1913 Rex, sweetie, it’s not that hard. I notice you immediately fall back to quoting that canard, “all sex is rape.” This is not the general position of feminists, but in your ignorance, it’s the only thing you’ve got to quote. Go read some actual feminists—and not feminist bashers, like Hoff-Summers, Paglia, Young, Roiphe and so on----and then get back to me. Don’t bother till you do. More to the point, I’ll ignore you till you do. You’re not worth it till you make an effort to inform yourself, and informing yourself does not mean reading only those who hate feminists and feminism. Really simple, huh? So why does it have to get so complicated? And by the way, too, the MS. Boards are just one board. They don’t represent all of feminism. Just FYI, which you appear to need. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/105 "2003-12-10T07:32:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by margin \* > \*\* > Rex, sweetie, it’s not that hard. I notice you immediately fall back to quoting that canard, “all sex is rape.” This is not the general position of feminists, but in your ignorance, it’s the only thing you’ve got to quote. > \*\* “Sweetie”? Something tells me I’d be accused of blatant mysogny if I referred to a woman by that term. Anyways, the reason I mentioned the “all sex is rape” quote is that I thought that quote belonged to Hoff-Summers, who you directly mentioned. I thought you were comparing my statement to that one, which is why I thought to make the comparison. If she is not, in fact, the author of said quote, then I simply misunderstood the comparison you were trying to make. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Go read some actual feminists—and not feminist bashers, like Hoff-Summers, Paglia, Young, Roiphe and so on----and then get back to me. Don’t bother till you do. More to the point, I’ll ignore you till you do. You’re not worth it till you make an effort to inform yourself, and informing yourself does not mean reading only those who hate feminists and feminism. Really simple, huh? So why does it have to get so complicated? And by the way, too, the MS. Boards are just one board. They don’t represent all of feminism. Just FYI, which you appear to need. \*\* Well, if you’d been following this thread, you’d see I’ve read Simone de Beauvoir, doesn’t she count in your book? I had feminist professors in college, don’t they count? If it’s not that complicated, then why can’t you just define what sort of “feminism” is considered acceptable by that community, or by any such community for that matter? I gave a list of things and asked if they were relevant to whether one could be considered a “feminist”. You are unable to answer? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/106 "2003-12-10T07:34:27Z")
Margin, you are the one that brought up Christina Hoff-Summers. You just unjustly compared RexDart to her in your previous post. And now in your latest post you accuse RexDart of only bringing up feminist bashers, like Hoff-Summers, when of course RexDart is just responding to your previous post in which _you_ brought her up. And unjustly compared her to him. By the way, RexDart did not say they were a no-male board, he said he thought they were and asked to make sure. I’m seeing a lot of bizarre outrage tying your posts together, but not a lot of logic. Or fairness. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/107 "2003-12-10T10:57:58Z")
Why would one join a message board where one of the qualications for joining is that one needs to be of a certain belief? What is there to debate, when all around you share the same views? Now, I’m cool with feminism, I really am. I understand why women came up with it. You can’t do the dishes all day long, after all. But some of y’all seem a tiny bit too obsessed with it - obviously on either side of the equation. Oh, well. Another thing I don’t have to lie awake at night for. A big hello to **DavidByron** , by the way. I see you’ve no intention of staying, as you put it. What a pity! We’re obviously losing a man of character and intellect in you. You shall be missed. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/108 "2003-12-10T11:00:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\* > A big hello to **DavidByron** , by the way. I see you’ve no intention of staying, as you put it. What a pity! We’re obviously losing a man of character and intellect in you. You shall be missed. \*\* Well, he did use capital letters and punctuation. I think we both know a few message boards where that sort of thing is at a premium and he’ll be welcomed as a saviour descended from the heavens. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/109 "2003-12-10T11:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > **Anyways, the reason I mentioned the “all sex is rape” quote is that I thought that quote belonged to Hoff-Summers, who you directly mentioned. I thought you were comparing my statement to that one, which is why I thought to make the comparison. If she is not, in fact, the author of said quote, then I simply misunderstood the comparison you were trying to make.** I don’t think _anyone_ is the author of said quote. It has never been said by any of the women I’ve seen it attributed to (usually Andrea Dworkin or Catherine McKinnon, but someone here claimed it was Gloria Steinem not long ago). It most certainly was never said by Christina Hoff-Summers! ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/110 "2003-12-10T11:24:00Z")
“[Penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent. But I’m not saying that sex must be rape.](http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinno.htm)” Dworkin from snopes ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/111 "2003-12-10T11:56:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darkhold \* > \*\*“[Penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent. But I’m not saying that sex must be rape.](http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinno.htm)” Dworkin from snopes \*\* She’s obviously never had good sex. Hard? (yum,) Yeah, enthusiastic? Oh hell yeah!! Do those things equal violence? Sheesh, of COURSE not. And normal (read: not the Dworkins etc) people who think that the basic, original premise of feminism is a decent worthwhile ordeal don’t think that either. **SAL** is convinced that “feminists” want to erase men from the planet as a “final solution”. THAT is what he’s never provided a cite for, despite having been asked probably 50+ times. Just to clarify the beef some of us have with his twisted, unrealistic opinion of feminism. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/112 "2003-12-10T11:56:11Z")
The Ms boards are women-only? I can’t remember if I’ve joined them or not, I think I sometimes get some spammy Ms newsletter, but how fucking ridiculous. How are you supposed to improve the position and protect the rights of [particular group] if [particular group] refuses to enter dialogue with [oppressive majority]? I am a feminist in so far as I support equal rights, equal pay etc, and want to see the status of women across the globe improved. Certainly not man-hating. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/113 "2003-12-10T12:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > **The Ms boards are women-only?** I think it’s been established that they aren’t, istara. They’re _pro-feminist_ only. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/114 "2003-12-10T12:51:57Z")
I think all this shit could have been avoided if **SAL** had worded his point differently. If he had said something like, “Slainte, it must be the stores you’re shopping at, because I’ve searched Hallmark’s website, and it actually slants **towards** females (followed by stats), perhaps you should try e-cards?” But instead, he jumped on the “victim” bandwagon, and stayed on it, even when **Slainte** pointed out that that was not her intention. Actually, **SAL** reminds me of a quoted by Andy Rooney that I recently read: “I stand by my guns, even when they’re not loaded”. So, was **Coldfire** wrong? Well, his assessment that **SAL** was being fucking annoying seems right on the money. **Andy’s** point was valid, but his presentation of said point was definitely in asshole territory. OTOH, as someone already pointed out, it may have been preferrable for **Coldie** to state his objections in one post, then wait a little before closing the thread. However, AFAIK, the mods here are all human; after all, the job don’t pay, and they can’t take a dump without getting criticized for it, so SuperHumans are certainly not interested in the job! So, humans (yes, even myself:)) mis-step sometimes. I do agree with **RexDart** that these boards have a definite liberal slant, but, as a conservative, I’ve never felt unwelcome here. I state my views and beliefs as clearly and non-confrontationally as I can, and everyone seems to respect that. Also, unlike extremists on both sides, I’m perfectly happy to accept the idea that there’s no one right POV for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/115 "2003-12-10T12:55:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **Coldfire** : Why would one join a message board where one of the qualications for joining is that one needs to be of a certain belief? > > What is there to debate, when all around you share the same views? It’s not always about debate. I don’t participate there, but often feminist forums are about friendships, political activities, economic information, social problems, etc. And you deserve rolly eyes for thinking that all feminists share the same views. As for the viewpoints of what someone referred to as “the oppressive majority,” we have familiarized ourselves with the arguments on why we should not have access to social, political and economic equality for thousands of years now. And, after all, that is what feminism is: \* the theory of the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.\*. If a woman believes there should be a “Final Solution to the male problem,” it is not because she is a feminist. It is because she is a lunatic fuckwad with extremist views on the place of women. But, according to _Webster’s_. she is not even technically a feminist anymore because she doesn’t believe in the equality of the sexes. > [@](#): > > **RexDart** : I think it’s improper to assume that anyone not using the magical anti-generalization word “some”, a prophyalctic against the nitpickers around here, is automatically endorsing all other qualifiers. “Some” is indeed an excellent anti-generalization word and serves a very useful purpose. “All” can be dropped without changing the basic meaning too much, but not “some.” What you call “nit-picking,” I call being accurate. Without that qualifier we end up with strange conclusions such as: **Human beings are Mandarin women.** ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/116 "2003-12-10T13:03:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*Wait. You can _swear_ when closing a thread? I never knew. \*\* I’m glad I kept reading - that made me laugh out loud. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/117 "2003-12-10T13:15:41Z")
> [@](#): > > If a woman believes there should be a “Final Solution to the male problem,” it is not because she is a feminist. It is because she is a lunatic fuckwad with extremist views on the place of women. But, according to Webster’s. she is not even technically a feminist anymore because she doesn’t believe in the equality of the sexes. EVIL CHUCKLE. Oh, I SOOO tried to get this fact through their thick skulls, they wouldn’t be budged from their “Feminists = man-hating troll bitches” stance. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/118 "2003-12-10T13:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **DavidByron:** _ > Oh I’m not sticking around. Okay. I’ve taken care of that for you. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/119 "2003-12-10T13:50:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **Zoe:** It’s not always about debate. I don’t participate there, but often feminist forums are about friendships, political activities, economic information, social problems, etc. And you deserve rolly eyes for thinking that all feminists share the same views. JMHO, but I’d say that goes for the majority of boards, serving the majority of interest groups. I can say from personal observation that boards devoted to, say, horses and cats wander off into all sorts of byways from the main topic(s). Even the SDMB – devoted to fighting ignorance, right? – has metamorphosized from that single purpose. Just look at all the forums here. Would one say that MPSIMS, IMHO, Cafe Society, and the Pit confine themselves to factual explication? No offense, **Coldfire** , but I believe your definition of a board’s raison d’etre is too narrow. > [@](#): > > **Zoe:** As for the viewpoints of what someone referred to as “the oppressive majority,” we have familiarized ourselves with the arguments on why we should not have access to social, political and economic equality for thousands of years now. Pity, isn’t it, that we should still be confronting those arguments, eh? Dressing up straw women in modern clothes doesn’t alter their inner invalidity. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/120 "2003-12-10T13:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > \*\*Okay. I’ve taken care of that for you. You’re welcome. \*\* Seems like overkill to me. He must have done something awful that no one else saw, huh? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/121 "2003-12-10T13:57:12Z")
Oh, and **Coldfire** , I apologize for the flat-out statement “your definition of a board’s raison d’etre is too narrow.” Obviously you didn’t state that explicitly; I took it as the implication of what you did say, which was: > [@](#): > > Why would one join a message board where one of the qualications for joining is that one needs to be of a certain belief? > > What is there to debate, when all around you share the same views? If I’ve generalized beyond what you intended, I grovel in abasement. Whew! Suicide by mod forestalled once again! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008/122 "2003-12-10T14:02:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > **For instance, as a libertarian, I’d like a word that means “feminist principles that lie within the scope of a libertarian position.” Some principles do, but the postmodern deconstructionist stuff doesn’t, nor does alot of the retributive justice rhetoric. But I’m familiar with the writings of Simone de Beuvoir, she’s one of my favorite 20th century philsophers, and I find much of it agreeable. So with the simple label of “feminist” all that’s available, I can’t meaningfully say I’m pro- or anti-feminist. For every person that uses the word to mean something compatible with basic libertarian principles, there’s another who attaches 40 decades of garbage onto it from radical college professors, and this excess baggage makes the philosophy unendorseable by many.** **Rexdart** , I don’t wish that previous thread on the worst of my enemies. Suffice it to say that I agree entirely with you and spent several days banging my head against the dual cement walls of **Andy** and **catsix** , who near as I can tell deny the existence of a single rational feminist in the world, and are dedicated to throwing up obfuscations, ad hominems, and irrelevancies whenever you try to debate the point reasonably with them. **catsix** is, near as I can tell, a decent person when feminism isn’t on discussion. I’ve never seen **Andy** be anything but a stinky steamy turdball. Actually, on rereading, I’ll disagree with you on one point, unless “40 decades” is a typo :). Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coldfire-not-a-warning-my-eye/218008.md?page=7)