# Coleman was guilty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723 "2006-01-12T22:22:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/1 "2006-01-12T22:22:52Z")
In several threads over the years like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=144157), we have discussed the case of Roger Keith Coleman, executed in Virginia for the brutal murder of his sister-in-law. The state of Virginia fought for some time to avoid testing the evidence in Coleman’s case with more advanced DNA methods; recently, outgoing Governor Mark Warner ordered that testing to happen. The tests prove that Coleman was [in fact guilty](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060112/ap_on_re_us/execution_dna). Now, I’m of two minds about this. I am relieved that an innocent man was not executed. Part of me wishes that the results would have been different, because the case against the death penalty would have been given some very powerful ammunition. I had mentioned Coleman as a possible example of an innocent man executed, though, and I wanted to publicly acknowledge that the issue is now settled, and he wasn’t. I do NOT believe that this justifies the death penalty. But honest discourse demands that I make this admission: to the extent I thought Coleman might be innocent… he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/2 "2006-01-12T22:33:53Z")
It’s good we know, and it’s good that he wasn’t innocent. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/3 "2006-01-12T22:57:54Z")
I am glad Gov Warner ordered the test. Now we know. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/4 "2006-01-12T23:05:23Z")
I share your ambivalence, **Bricker**. I remain convinced that the United States has executed innocent people, and I thought about posting that Coleman’s DNA was a match, but wasn’t sure where to post it. ---
**Author:** ![GreyMatters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a9a28c/32.png) [@GreyMatters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreyMatters)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/5 "2006-01-12T23:36:20Z")
Uh, not to quibble…but… The tests only proved his semen was there at the body’s crime scene. I would think that is pretty damning evidence. However, supposedly, there were two sets of genetically different semen at the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/6 "2006-01-13T00:36:56Z")
> [@GreyMatters](#): > > Uh, not to quibble…but… > > The tests only proved his semen was there at the body’s crime scene. I would think that is pretty damning evidence. However, supposedly, there were two sets of genetically different semen at the scene. I’ll assume that’s true (I have no knowledge of this case). Your point? How does that fact tend to show his innocence? If he had claimed/admitted (consensual) intercourse, but denied the rape/murder, then you might have a point. Otherwise, so what? Are you positing two independant rapists? In other words, Coleman raped her, and left her alive, but some other guy then showed up, raped her a second time, and the other guy killed her? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/7 "2006-01-13T01:34:20Z")
Thanks for the information **Bricker** , and kudos for having the fortitude to post this. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/8 "2006-01-13T02:12:56Z")
Now, why exactly did the Commonwealth of Virginia fight to block this testing for all these years? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/9 "2006-01-13T02:16:22Z")
Damn, I feel queasy about this one. I’m from Virginia, and while I’m not from the far southwest part of the commonwealth where this happened I’ve been following this case for a _long_ time. At the time of Coleman’s death from what I read in the papers I was pretty sure he was guilty. Then a friend of mine recommended I read, “May God Have Mercy: A True Story of Crime and Punishment.” It was released about 10 years ago if memory serves. For a long time I’d sort of tacitly supported the death penalty. Morally I didn’t feel it right that the government execute people. But I also didn’t lose any sleep as in general I felt these people were the absolute dregs of society, the worst society has ever produced. But what that book does a good job of demonstrating (and this applies eventhough Coleman was guilty) is just how flawed the process was. **Legally speaking** I don’t see how a judge, a defense attorney, SOMEONE in that legal mess didn’t say/convince people that, “Hey, there just isn’t a solid case here.” And there really wasn’t. The physical evidence against Coleman was shaky. There was a very plausible explanation that someone else committed the crime, someone who lived within sight of Wanda McCloy and who had a history of sexually abusing women and who was feared in the community for his violence and unpredictability (given all that I know about this person if there were two rapists I suspect he was the other one.) The “no forced entry” thing is bullshit, there was a pry-mark on McCloy’s door. It has been suggested the prosecutor’s office may have hidden this fact from the defense (which is a big no-no.) There was also a very credible witness who put Coleman somewhere else very shortly before the crime was committed. The time frame, under this witness’s testimony made it all but impossible for Coleman to get from A to B and commit two rapes (McCloy was vaginally and anally raped) in the time period before McCloy’s husband returned home from work. Anyways, I certainly still suggest the book. It shows a _lot_ of problem’s with the prosecution’s case, the system in general, and Coleman’s very inexperienced defense attorney. He was so inept as a defense attorney that during the appeals process he actually made statements harmful to Coleman’s chances of getting a new trial. The appeals process also shows how one Virginia judge had the ability to unduly influence the case and all-but ignore highly relevant evidence. The State appeals process was nightmarish, as Coleman was basically given no ability to meaningfully appeal his conviction in State court because his appeal came in late. Which may or may not be true because I believe it was actually filed three days earlier, but because of some weird Holiday that monday or something like that, it wasn’t processed until a day late; so he technically missed his window for appeal on the state level. When the DNA evidence is analyzed in the book and shows Coleman was in a group constituting 2% of the population I got a little suspicious. However some of those small southwestern Virginia towns have a lot of “intermixed bloodlines” (i’m not saying “inbred” but the genetic diversity isn’t high) meaning it wasn’t unlikely in my mind that more people in the town were within that 2%. In fact I think Wanda McCloy’s husband was also in the 2%. Ultimately though this leaves me pissed off at Coleman. It’s one thing to vigorously try to defend yourself. But he took up the resources of a group that was trying to get innocent men off death row by lying. And he also had a young lawyer working hours and hours of her life emotionally distraught over the matter, because in her mind she was unable to get an innocent man off of death row. Coleman also married while in prison to a young woman who basically was lied to constantly by Coleman in that he always maintained with her that he was innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/10 "2006-01-13T02:18:06Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Now, why exactly did the Commonwealth of Virginia fight to block this testing for all these years? They handled the whole case dirty in my opinion. If you read the book it leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth in regards to both the local prosecutor’s office as well as a federal district court judge in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/11 "2006-01-13T02:23:11Z")
> [@Random](#): > > I’ll assume that’s true (I have no knowledge of this case). Your point? How does that fact tend to show his innocence? > > If he had claimed/admitted (consensual) intercourse, but denied the rape/murder, then you might have a point. Otherwise, so what? > > Are you positing two independant rapists? In other words, Coleman raped her, and left her alive, but some other guy then showed up, raped her a second time, and the other guy killed her? Well, the Zagruda tests definitely show that there was a second semen shooter … behind the grassy knoll. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/12 "2006-01-13T02:49:15Z")
> [@Random](#): > > I’ll assume that’s true (I have no knowledge of this case). Your point? How does that fact tend to show his innocence? One of the big things in the criminal justice system is you don’t bear the onus of proving innocence. It’s up to the prosecutor to prove your guilt. Often beyond any shadow of doubt. In a perfect application you could prove as false any argument along the lines of “Yeah, but there were two different DNA samples collected.” Sometimes common sense steps in. As a side note, what are the anti-DP people doing to save Scott Peterson? That isn’t a rhetorical question, and it isn’t a hijack attempt, but I’m curious what the movement is doing in his case. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/13 "2006-01-13T04:06:58Z")
The West Memphis 3 were finally able to get approval for DNA testing. I really hope they have a different outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/14 "2006-01-13T04:16:02Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > One of the big things in the criminal justice system is you don’t bear the onus of proving innocence. It’s up to the prosecutor to prove your guilt. Often beyond any shadow of doubt. In a perfect application you could prove as false any argument along the lines of “Yeah, but there were two different DNA samples collected.” Sometimes common sense steps in. Yeah, actually, I’ve heard of that presumption of innocence concept once or twice. For one thing, it’s “reasonable doubt”. Also, it doesn’t apply after conviction. But more to the point, all the second sample shows is that she (likely) had recent sex with another man, other than Coleman. None of the even remotely likely scenarios to explain this are exculpatory. (In rough order of probability: She was married and had sex the night before with her husband. Coleman had an accomplice in the rape. She was cheating on her husband.) How does any of this tend to show Coleman’s innocence? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/15 "2006-01-13T04:57:16Z")
Whatchoo talkin’ about, Willis? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/16 "2006-01-13T05:01:48Z")
What an a-hole Coleman was, proclaiming his innocence all these years when in fact he was guilty as sin. I hope he burns in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/17 "2006-01-13T05:16:18Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > As a side note, what are the anti-DP people doing to save Scott Peterson? That isn’t a rhetorical question, and it isn’t a hijack attempt, but I’m curious what the movement is doing in his case. I don’t know, but I wish they’d quit picking out these poster children, and fight the death penalty on the simple fact that it is morally wrong. It will take longer and will be more work, but is more certain to prevail in the long run than the method being used. If the death penalty is thrown out because we can’t be certain of guilt, then eventually some system will be developed where enough people are satisfied with proof of guilt, and we’re back at square one. Better to work at developing a consensus in this country that it is abhorent, uncivilized, and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/18 "2006-01-13T05:44:09Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > As a side note, what are the anti-DP people doing to save Scott Peterson? That isn’t a rhetorical question, and it isn’t a hijack attempt, but I’m curious what the movement is doing in his case. Oddly, there is a case where I am SURE that the jury convicted impropery- there was scads of “reasonable doubt”- in fact the Prosecution had \*no evidence at all that Scott killed his wife. - None. Oh sure- they had evidence that showed that Scott had a crappy alibi- well, so did I. They had lots & losst of evidenc that Scott was a sleazebag. So? Their only real case was “this is a horrible heinous crime, Scott is a scumbag, and he can’t prove he didn’t do it.” :rolleyes: if it hadn’t been for the Media attention, IMHO they would have dropped the case. Of course- I _think_ that Scott really DID do it- but that still doesn’t mean they had any evidence he did. But to answer your question- the anti DP dudes won’t touch Scott’s case with a 10’ pole. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/19 "2006-01-13T06:05:54Z")
I didn’t know whether Coleman was guilty, but still await an argument as to what killing him accomplished even if he was. You might as well have killed a random person off the street for all the good it did as far as I can tell… and given the fact that people are just as incapable of taking back their actions as everyone else is of committing them, they pretty much did in some sense. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/20 "2006-01-13T09:07:21Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > One of the big things in the criminal justice system is you don’t bear the onus of proving innocence. It’s up to the prosecutor to prove your guilt. Often beyond any shadow of doubt. In a perfect application you could prove as false any argument along the lines of “Yeah, but there were two different DNA samples collected.” Sometimes common sense steps in. > As a side note, what are the anti-DP people doing to save Scott Peterson? That isn’t a rhetorical question, and it isn’t a hijack attempt, but I’m curious what the movement is doing in his case. I’m not trying to sell the book or anything, but again, in the book about Coleman’s case it details how once you’ve been convicted and sentenced to death there’s really only two ways out of it. One is to show some error in the trial that would justify a retrial; at retrial you would be able to present new evidence and hopefully with more competent council be acquitted. The other is to “prove innocence.” There’s a few judicial mechanisms for this, and there’s also the executive route as there’s the typical concept that an executive would grant clemency if he was presented with true proof of innocence. In the book it is even mentioned that, procedurally speaking just because someone might have proof of innocence doesn’t mean that’s legally sufficient cause to overturn the original conviction/sentence or even legally sufficient cause to halt the execution. I don’t know much about it, but I’ve heard a few times from various sources that “genuine innocence” isn’t necessarily sufficient to overturning a conviction. Which is just crazy enough that, given the nature of our legal system I’m willing to believe it until someone more learned in the law clarifies the matter. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723.md?page=2)