# Coleman was guilty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723 "2006-01-12T22:22:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/21 "2006-01-13T09:27:48Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I didn’t know whether Coleman was guilty, but still await an argument as to what killing him accomplished even if he was. Well, the state certainly has an interest in ensuring that Coleman could never rape or kill again. A life sentence would have served the same purpose, with the small additional risk of him escaping prison. Your position, taking its natural course, would make all punishments moot, since none of them reverse the effects of the original offense. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/22 "2006-01-13T16:19:26Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, the state certainly has an interest in ensuring that Coleman could never rape or kill again. A life sentence would have served the same purpose, with the small additional risk of him escaping prison. > . Or the “small additional risk” :dubious: of: Being released by error Being paroled Killing a guard Killing another prisoner Arranging/ordering more killings while in prison (something Tookie was alleged to have done, and something this 76yo dues on death row in CA _did_ do) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/23 "2006-01-13T16:39:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or the “small additional risk” :dubious: of:) Hey, don’t jump down _my_ throat; I was just citing one potential problem, not compiling a list. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/24 "2006-01-13T16:41:54Z")
I’m glad they did the test. I too, thought there was a strong possibility of his innocence. I still oppose the death penaly in all cases. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/25 "2006-01-13T16:42:45Z")
Of course, throat-jumping for failure to preview is fair game. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/26 "2006-01-13T18:22:47Z")
Before everybody gets all angry at Virginia for preventing this for so long - I _believe_ this is the first time in any state that posthumous DNA testing has been done to determine if a person may have been innocent. Usually states just hides behind “the case is closed.” ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/27 "2006-01-13T18:41:54Z")
As a complete aside, I thought he was guilty, as soon as I saw his picture. And particularly when I heard that he had a previous conviction for attempted rape. Also, there was something about his innocent act that reminded me of a similar case here in Massachusetts. Don’t remember the guy’s name, but he managed to convince some pretty influential people he was innocent. Until, of course, the DNA test revealed him to be liar. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/28 "2006-01-16T01:50:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Part of me wishes that the results would have been different, because the case against the death penalty would have been given some very powerful ammunition. I understand what you are getting at, but no part of me could possibly wish for a result which would have meant that an innocent man was put to death by the state. The tragedy of that outcome is too horrible to contemplate (although clearly one which has occurred before, and in all likelihood will occur again). I find that the fact of having the opportunity to contemplate such a potential tragedy is sufficient to reinforce my opposition to the death penalty. This is particularly brought home during the period when you know the tests are being carried out, but before the outcome of the tests is unknown. > [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > As a complete aside, I thought he was guilty, as soon as I saw his picture. Hmmm, not sure we should be judging someone’s innocence or otherwise by a photo! Rather a fundamental principle I would have thought. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/29 "2006-01-16T13:32:30Z")
Somewhere in heaven, an angel has just failed to get his wings. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/30 "2006-01-17T08:27:23Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > As a complete aside, I thought he was guilty, as soon as I saw his picture. And particularly when I heard that he had a previous conviction for attempted rape. Also, there was something about his innocent act that reminded me of a similar case here in Massachusetts. Don’t remember the guy’s name, but he managed to convince some pretty influential people he was innocent. Until, of course, the DNA test revealed him to be liar. That’s a big part of it, and when you just read it as a rap sheet it sends off alarm-bells. But the book detailing Coleman’s fight against execution starts with the crime that resulted in his attempted rape conviction some years before. And the author of the book makes an excellent case that Coleman wasn’t guilty of that crime (and the crime as it was described may not have even been an attempted rape but just a mugging.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/31 "2006-01-26T01:28:10Z")
It need hardly be repeated that starting this thread reflects highly on the honesty of the OP. Good on you, **Bricker**. A related story that also weighs in on the pro-DP side is [this one.](http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/25/priest.slain.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > The inmate who strangled child-molesting priest John Geoghan was convicted of murder Wednesday after failing to convince a jury he was delusional when he killed one of the central figures in the Boston Archdiocese sex scandal. The part that struck me was this: > [@](#): > > Joseph Druce, 40, faces an automatic sentence of life in prison without parole. In other words, essentially, nothing. Which addresses this point: > [@](#): > > Well, the state certainly has an interest in ensuring that Coleman could never rape or kill again. A life sentence would have served the same purpose, with the small additional risk of him escaping prison. As well as the point made elsewhere that the DP dehumanizes us. What I think dehumanizes us is that we are giving this murderer a freebie. We have already done everything we are prepared to do, and it wasn’t enough, and we are not going to do anything more. And that’s a shame. Bad month for DP opponents. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/32 "2006-01-26T03:37:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What I think dehumanizes us is that we are giving this murderer a freebie. We have already done everything we are prepared to do, and it wasn’t enough, and we are not going to do anything more. And that’s a shame. If the story is to be believed, the system might give Druce an actual _incentive_ to commit additional murders while in prison: _“Even if he had been found not guilty by reason of insanity, Druce would not have gone free but would have been sent to a state mental hospital.”_ Not that a state mental hospital would be a walk in the park, but conceivably it might be preferable to prison, not to mention offering benefits in the form of potential escape opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/33 "2006-01-26T13:48:22Z")
Or at least no disincentive. But that ties into the argument of “death penalty as deterrent”, which is very difficult to demonstrate. Although, to be fair, my arguments in favor of the DP can often be used to argue in favor of executing the criminally insane. Which I don’t exactly like, but which seems a logical conclusion to draw. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/34 "2006-01-26T14:09:58Z")
Meh, how come people who don’t care that innocent people have been put to death somehow become bleeding-heart pacifists when convicts are murdered in prison? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/35 "2006-01-26T15:03:02Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Meh, how come people who don’t care that innocent people have been put to death somehow become bleeding-heart pacifists when convicts are murdered in prison? Because they do whatever’s most sanctimonious at the time. Regards, bup ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/36 "2006-01-26T18:52:38Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Meh, how come people who don’t care that innocent people have been put to death somehow become bleeding-heart pacifists when convicts are murdered in prison? I don’t know. How come people who don’t care that innocent people have been murdered somehow become bleeding-heart pacifists when someone is convicted of it? > [@bup](#): > > Because they do whatever’s most sanctimonious at the time. Oh yeah, sanctimonious. As in “who cares how many innocents die - we aren’t even going to try to do anything about it. Because some innocent lives are worth more than others.” :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/37 "2006-01-26T19:09:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because some innocent lives are worth more than others." Yeah, all those innocent lives being wasted right now because hippy dippy judges are releasing all the people sent to life without possibility of parole sentences sooooo early. Hundreds of people are murdered every year in breakouts by convicts with life sentences! Or maybe not. I have another, totally unsupported, theory: that those senteced to death are LESS likely to have committed their crimes than your average felon. During the sentencing phase, remorse is often factored in deciding between possible sentences. If you’re NOT GUILTY, why should you show remorse for something you didn’t commit? So the judge/jury throws the book at the unrepentant “murderer”. If that’s the case, their life IS actually worth more, on average, than those not sentenced to death, as they are less likely to have committed the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723/38 "2006-01-26T22:08:03Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yeah, all those innocent lives being wasted right now because hippy dippy judges are releasing all the people sent to life without possibility of parole sentences sooooo early. Hundreds of people are murdered every year in breakouts by convicts with life sentences! Or maybe not. You mean instead of the hundreds and hundreds of innocent people who are actually executed every year. Oh, that’s right - there has been, in the last thirty years, at most, if you make the right assumptions and don’t worry about details too much, one. Maybe. As opposed to the four victims of repeat murderers mentioned in this thread alone. And, if you had bothered to read the article to which I linked, you might have noticed that the murderer did not even wait until some fat head parole board let him walk the streets before he killed someone, again. > [@](#): > > I have another, totally unsupported, theory: that those senteced to death are LESS likely to have committed their crimes than your average felon. During the sentencing phase, remorse is often factored in deciding between possible sentences. If you’re NOT GUILTY, why should you show remorse for something you didn’t commit? So the judge/jury throws the book at the unrepentant “murderer”. “Totally unsupported” is the word for it, all right. Again, you might want to read before you comment. Coleman went to his death swearing up and down that he was innocent. He wasn’t. If you are willing to claim that Coleman was as innocent as the newborn lamb despite the evidence, I would suggest that you are basing this on something other than the scientifically established facts. > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, their life IS actually worth more, on average, than those not sentenced to death, as they are less likely to have committed the crime. Again, not to cramp your style, but Druce’s latest victim had not been convicted of a capital crime. But you don’t seem terribly concerned about his death. Why is that? IOW, if it doesn’t matter to you that Druce’s victim was killed **without** having killed anyone, why is it such a big deal that Druce himself not be executed, even though he has killed two people? Why are those two innocent lives not worth considering, but this double murderer’s life so important that you would rather pretend he is innocent and safe? Or consider the other clown who was recently given the Needle. He arranged three murders while still in prison. Executing him would have saved three innocent lives (he had the witnesses to his first murder killed). Why no concern for them? Your moral standards seem so flexible. Do you use some kind of lotion? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coleman-was-guilty/339723.md?page=1)