# Colin Powell called prewar intelligence reports "Bullshit." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069 "2003-06-02T04:35:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/141 "2003-06-06T01:44:50Z")
Did anyone catch the interview with Hans Blix on the _BBC World News_ this evening? Priceless. Some of his comments were very telling. He said that when the U.S. and U.K. started feeding him the very best leads their intelligence could muster, he sent his inspectors to the places identified, and they found nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. He said that certainly gave him pause (diplomatic understatement, I believe). When asked about why no WMD have been found, he posited the most obvious explanation first, i.e., that there weren’t any. He didn’t even raise the possibility that the WMD were there, but had been destroyed just before the invasion (which has always been a ridiculous hypothesis - chem and bio weapons just aren’t that easy to get rid of). He wouldn’t absolutely rule out the chance that some WMD would still be found, but he left the impression that if he were a betting man, he wouldn’t put a nickel on it. He was very persuasive in his theory about why Saddam seemed ambiguous about whether or not he had WMD. Blix believes that it’s probable that Saddam had no WMD, but wanted to keep the U.S. thinking that he did, simply to forestall an invasion (“Don’t invade my country, or we’ll launch our terrible WMD against you and your allies in the Middle East.”). Blix pointed out that Saddam has a history of miscalculating in such situations, and that he may well have done so again. When asked about the U.S. assertion that they will find WMD, and that everyone should just be more patient, Blix remarked on the rather obvious fact that his inspection regime was never the recipient of any such patience. It was all he could do to avoid rolling his eyes. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/142 "2003-06-06T02:06:10Z")
Take a look at this [1998 letter from the Senate Armed Services Committee](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/gen/Document.jpg). It calls on the President to take action against Iraq, **because of Iraq’s refusal to end its WMD program.** Among the signitories are Tom Daschle, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Frank Lautenberg, Diane Feinstein, and other Democrats. At this point, there’s a mystery about the WMDs, but there’s no evidence that Bush lied about them. Nor is there evidence that Tom Daschle, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Frank Lautenberg, and Diane Feinstein lied about them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/143 "2003-06-06T02:46:03Z")
There no evidence he lied about them? Are you serious? Well, here’s some evidence; George Bush said Iraq possessed thousands and thousands of pounds of active chemical weapons. And the world’s most powerful army has now completely occupied the entire country and they cannot find a single WMD. You don’t think that constitutes EVIDENCE? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/144 "2003-06-06T03:00:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*George Bush said Iraq possessed thousands and thousands of pounds of active chemical weapons. And the world’s most powerful army has now completely occupied the entire country and they cannot find a single WMD. You don’t think that constitutes EVIDENCE? \*\* That’s certainly evidence that Bush may have been wrong. But, if Bush was saying what the intelligence agency reports told him, then he wasn’t lying. Intelligence reports have been wrong before. Intelligence is an inexact process. The CIA reports are all going to the Senate Intelligence Committee in a few days, so I think we will soon find out whether or not Bush’s statements were based on what he had been told. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/145 "2003-06-06T03:09:59Z")
Bush was saying what his handlers told the intelligence agencies he wanted their reports to tell him. But fear not, soon enough, he’s promising to [reveal the truth](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/05/sprj.irq.wmd.controversy/index.html). Somehow, I think not. Polish up that resume, Georgie Boy. You’re gonna need it soon enough, you contemptible piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/146 "2003-06-06T03:13:50Z")
**Diogenes** , think of it this way: I’m trying to keep you from becoming even _more_ cynical. The message from Bush is as crystal clear as it gets: he is telling his constituency, the upper portion of the middle class, the majority of whose sons & daughters aren’t ever going to volunteer for military service, that they are going to be a) safe and b) prosperous, no matter what it takes in terms of blood and treasure. The consequences of this, he is telling them, in no uncertain terms, will be borne by a) those in the lower half of the economic spectrum and b) foreigners. That message has been heard, and he will be re-elected, barring a total disaster in the economy that (this is the important part) _can’t be traced to terrorism_. I’ll place a gentleman’s bet with you that the economy will recover, and that he’ll be re-elected. And just to be clear, this is coming from someone who wants to see him disgraced, impeached and jailed. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/147 "2003-06-06T03:17:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Take a look at this [1998 letter from the Senate Armed Services Committee](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/gen/Document.jpg). It calls on the President to take action against Iraq, **because of Iraq’s refusal to end its WMD program.** Among the signitories are Tom Daschle, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Frank Lautenberg, Diane Feinstein, and other Democrats. > > At this point, there’s a mystery about the WMDs, but there’s no evidence that Bush lied about them. Nor is there evidence that Tom Daschle, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Frank Lautenberg, and Diane Feinstein lied about them. \*\* While this thread has been devoted largely to slamming Bush and his administration (rightly, i believe), there _were_ plenty of Democrats who were far too willing to toe the line on all of this. The lack of a critical perspective from much of the Democratic party is not something of which they have any cause to be proud. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/148 "2003-06-06T03:21:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Take a look at this [1998 letter from the Senate Armed Services Committee](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/gen/Document.jpg). It calls on the President to take action against Iraq, **because of Iraq’s refusal to end its WMD program.** Among the signitories are Tom Daschle, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Frank Lautenberg, Diane Feinstein, and other Democrats. > > At this point, there’s a mystery about the WMDs, but there’s no evidence that Bush lied about them. Nor is there evidence that Tom Daschle, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Frank Lautenberg, and Diane Feinstein lied about them. \*\* Well, **december** , I believe you’re reading this letter in rather an odd way. The letter was written in direct response to Saddam kicking the U.N. inspectors out of Iraq in 1998. In 2002, of course, he allowed them back in, and let them go pretty much wherever they wanted. So, the situation faced by Bush was the opposite of the situation these Senators were addressing. When this letter was written, the Senators were clearly concerned that, without inspections, Iraq might “reconstitute its weapons of mass destruction programs.” That tells me that, at that time, they didn’t believe that Saddam actually _had_ any WMD. They were merely concerned that, if he was allowed to evade future inspection, he might start developing some again. Bush, on the other hand, told us that Iraq had vast stockpiles of WMD, despite the fact that he obviously didn’t have any credible intelligence to support that claim, and despite having the U.N. conducting surprise inspections all over Iraq, and finding nothing. Not even remotely similar situations. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/149 "2003-06-06T03:32:27Z")
**december** , is the evidence in the OP insufficient? In case it is not, what further do you personally require to sign your name to the statement “George W. Bush knowingly and purposefully lied about weapons of mass destruction”? ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/150 "2003-06-06T03:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*While this thread has been devoted largely to slamming Bush and his administration (rightly, i believe), there _were_ plenty of Democrats who were far too willing to toe the line on all of this. The lack of a critical perspective from much of the Democratic party is not something of which they have any cause to be proud. \*\* I’d like to say that I agree with this. Sadly, instead of showing outrage, righteous indignation at how the executive branch is handling things, few congressmen - Democrats especially - have said one word that goes against administration policy. Our congressmen have shown cowardice and ineptitude in the face of a major national problem. Most of them have bent over backwards to avoid saying anything negative. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/151 "2003-06-06T03:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > **december** , what further do you personally require to sign your name to the statement “George W. Bush knowingly and purposefully lied about weapons of mass destruction”? Two things need to be proved:[ol][li]Bush was wrong about Iraq’s WMDs before the war.[\*]Bush was _knowingly_ wrong. That is, his position was not supported by the intelligence reports he received.[/ol]The failure to find weapons so far (except for 2 biological labs) is evidence of #1, but not yet conclusive. We’ve seen no evidence at all of #2. Frankly I doubt that Bush was knowingly wrong, because Tony Blair was saying the same things as Bush was. Also, Saddam Hussein was behaving like someone who was not complying with the UN resolutions. I think it’s more likely that the US and UK spy agencies \*were \*reporting substantial amounts of WMDs, although they may both have been wrong.[/li] However, **minty green** may have evidence of #2. From his last post, it appears that he has top security clearance, has already read all the CIA files, and has interviewed many members of the CIA. That would seem to be the only way that he could be so certain that the CIA falsified their reports at Bush’s request. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/152 "2003-06-06T04:13:21Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by december \* \*\*Two things need to be proved:[ol][li]Bush was wrong about Iraq’s WMDs before the war.[_]Bush was _knowingly_ wrong. That is, his position was not supported by the intelligence reports he received.[/ol]\*\*[/li][/QUOTE] I think #1 is pretty much a certainty, at this stage of the game. As far as #2 is concerned, either Bush was knowingly wrong, and lied to the world intentionally, or he’s presiding over a spectacularly incompetent administration, and ended up lying to the world through sheer dim-wittedness. I can’t, for the life of me, come up with any other plausible explanations. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/153 "2003-06-06T04:37:18Z")
**december** , one more question for you while you’re here, if you please. What evidence does the OP lack to show that Bush et al. knew they were going on flimsy (if that) evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/154 "2003-06-06T05:57:06Z")
When did we confirm that those trailers were “biological labs,” btw? From what I’ve read they show no evidence that they were ever used as labs. The best the WH can say is that they “fit the description” given by informants of possible labs, but they’ve also admitted that they have found no evidence that these particular trailers were ever used a such. They’ve also called these trailers their “best evidence yet” that Iraq had a WMD program. If their “best” evidence is _no_ evidence, I’d have to see what their crap evidence is. Is this really the best they can do. Are they really going to cling to a couple of empty vans as proof that Iraq had thousands of WMDs and posed an imminent threat to the US? I was born at night, but it wasn’t _last_ night. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/155 "2003-06-06T07:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\ ***december** , one more question for you while you’re here, if you please. > > What evidence does the OP lack to show that Bush et al. knew they were going on flimsy (if that) evidence? \*\* As far as I can see, there’s no evidence at all that Bush et al. “knew they were going on flimsy (if that) evidence.” If there is some evidence that Bush knew his evidence was flimsy, please point it out. It seems likely to me that Bush believed the evidence, because many others did as well. The list of those who thought Iraq had a big WMD program includes Tony Blair and Jack Straw from the UK. Also, in 1998 many leading Democrats made statements indicating their certainty of Saddam’s WMD program, including President Clinton. Furthermore few, if any, leaders took the position that Saddam didn’t have WMDs, not even Chirac. Quite a few anti-war folks said that the WMDs weren’t sufficiently proved or perhaps said Saddam _might not_ have WMDs. But, there weren’t many people before the war who flat-out said that Saddam didn’t have WMDs. In short, Bush’s allegations that Saddam had WMDs were conventional wisdom. **Diogenes** > [@](#): > > Since ground combat ended, U.S. and U.K. military authorities have discovered two trailers equipped as biological labs, and no weapons of mass destruction. [http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aAVe5.dNlmjc&refer=us](http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aAVe5.dNlmjc&refer=us) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/156 "2003-06-06T07:12:01Z")
No one has confirmed that the trailers were WMD biological labs – the closest we’ve got are folks in the Pentagon who assume they’re WMD mobile labs because “we can’t think of any other use for them.” Given how grossly inaccurate the Pentagon’s pre-war information is looking these days, I’m taking that with a shaker full o’ salt. And if you want to poke into [this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188342) there’s some talk that the trailers may actually be mobile laboratories for manufacturing rocket fuel – allowed under UN resolutions – and that Iraq declared them to UN inspectors as recently as March 2003… ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/157 "2003-06-06T07:50:04Z")
Just curious about one thing, **december** : Name the last time a country was bombed because the best evidence that they posed a threat to anyone else was “conventional wisdom”. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/158 "2003-06-06T07:52:15Z")
There’s a collection of stuff about the trailers here: [http://cryptome.sabotage.org/iq-bw-plants.htm](http://cryptome.sabotage.org/iq-bw-plants.htm) It includes the CIA report, and a few news stories. From the CIA report: > [@](#): > > \*\*Hydrogen Production Cover Story \*\* > > Senior Iraqi officials of the al-Kindi Research, Testing, Development, and Engineering facility in Mosul were shown pictures of the mobile production trailers, and they claimed that the trailers were used to chemically produce hydrogen for artillery weather balloons. Hydrogen production would be a plausible cover story for the mobile production units. > > The Iraqis have used sophisticated denial and deception methods that include the use of cover stories that are designed to work. Some of the features of the trailer—a gas collection system and the presence of caustic—are consistent with both bioproduction and hydrogen production. > > The plant’s design **possibly could be used to produce hydrogen using a chemical reaction, but it would be inefficient**. The capacity of this trailer is larger than typical units for hydrogen production for weather balloons. Compact, transportable hydrogen generation systems are commercially available, safe, and reliable. My bolding. Note that the CIA thinks it wouldn’t really be for hydrogen, because it would be inefficient, so the hydrogen is just a cover story. From the NYT, describing the press briefing upon release of the CIA report: > [@](#): > > Their gear was rusty, officials said, perhaps from sitting in the rain. And the mobile factories were poorly designed. For instance, one official noted, Iraqi biologists running the plants would have had a hard time getting raw materials into the production gear and removing multiplied colonies of deadly germs. > > ‘‘ **Relatively inefficient but ingenious** ’’ is how one analyst described the mobile factories. > > **Their inefficiency, he added, was probably rooted in a decision to design the plants with enough technical ambiguity so they could be disclaimed as germ factories if discovered.** Iraqi scientists have said the units were used to produce hydrogen for weather balloons. But the intelligence officials dismissed that explanation as a cover story even while conceding that the equipment could, in fact, have been used occasionally to make hydrogen. Neat, huh? So they wouldn’t be very efficient at germ production either, but that’s just further evidence that that’s what they _were_ used for. ---
**Author:** ![spanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@spanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spanna)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/159 "2003-06-06T09:17:03Z")
## The plant’s design possibly could be used to produce hydrogen using a chemical reaction, but it would be inefficient. The capacity of this trailer is larger than typical units for hydrogen production for weather balloons. Compact, transportable hydrogen generation systems are commercially available, safe, and reliable. Ohh better systems were commercially available - were they supposed to import one through the sanctions, perhaps they are available mail order 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069/160 "2003-06-06T09:38:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\*…There is actual talk in Europe about building a stronger EU, with a military power to match that of the U.S. Many people don’t trust the U.S. anymore. \*\* And there is also talk of using magnetic bracelets to cure all that ails you. Neither is going to happen in our lifetimes. Europe spends far too little on defense to ever expect to rival the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colin-powell-called-prewar-intelligence-reports-bullshit/179069.md?page=9)