# Collateral damage as UK providers censor Internet Archive **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438 "2009-01-15T15:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wiltshire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea5d25/32.png) [@Wiltshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiltshire)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/1 "2009-01-15T15:51:20Z")
> **[IWF confirms Wayback Machine porn blacklisting](https://www.theregister.com/2009/01/14/iwf_details_archive_blacklisting/)** > > Be and Virgin mimic Demon censorship Let’s play we’ll-happily-endure-it-anyway-because-totalitarian-control-powers-are-only-for-our-own-good Bingo. Which part of the Internet gets clusterfucked next? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/2 "2009-01-15T16:15:20Z")
I’m having some trouble understanding the story, as it contains a number of vague statements, and the author damages his credibility when he says “the cult of Wikipedia.” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/3 "2009-01-15T16:34:56Z")
> [@Wiltshire](#): > > Which part of the Internet gets clusterfucked next? I guess that depends on whether Kevin “Crippling Internet Censorship” Rudd gets it through his thick head that his plan won’t bloody work. In other “The British are proper fucked” news, has anyone else heard about [the British police hacking people’s computers without a warrant](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5439604.ece)? ---
**Author:** ![Wiltshire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea5d25/32.png) [@Wiltshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiltshire)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/4 "2009-01-15T18:00:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m having some trouble understanding the story, as it contains a number of vague statements, and the author damages his credibility when he says “the cult of Wikipedia.” It’s “El Reg”. Expect bitter sarcasm. Slant and lingo should be taken with a grain of salt. As for the facts, what’s so hard to understand? The UK is building an infrastructure like the Great Firewall of China. And fucks it up. Again. People’s access to an entire website. Innocent communication gets restricted because fascist dickheads grab for power to control what you are allowed to see and what not. But that’s fine. Think of the children. The technology is already there. The power to control you is there. Just waiting for someone to use it. How long until content other than alleged child pornography gets blocked? Will those bastards at least fix the collateral damage issue and get their censorship done _properly_? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/5 "2009-01-15T18:49:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m having some trouble understanding the story, as it contains a number of vague statements, and the author damages his credibility when he says “the cult of Wikipedia.” As **Wiltshire** says, _The Register_ is sort of known for that style of writing. Also, they do have a bit of a hard-on for Wikipedia, most specifically the way that any negative information about founder Jimmy Wales and the history of Wikipedia is instantly removed from the site, and also regarding the tendency of some Wiki moderators and senior editor types to arbitrarily ban people who make edits they don’t like on certain topics, even when the edits are accurate. If you go to _The Register_’s website and search for Wikipedia, you can easily find some of those articles. As for the OP, this is another example of stupid policy regarding the internet. As **Grumman** says, watch for Australia to fuck things up next. Here’s a [recent article](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/12/22/1229794328860.html?page=fullpage) about how awful the Australian government’s plan is. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/6 "2009-01-15T18:50:32Z")
Australia’s government is trying to pull the same shit: [http://nocleanfeed.com/](http://nocleanfeed.com/) Funny how people always like to talk about how backwards America is compared to Europe, often referring with admiration to Europe’s socialism as a virtue. I think this kind of shit is a great reminder of what happens when you decide to invite the government to take control of your life. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/7 "2009-01-15T21:54:46Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Australia’s government is trying to pull the same shit: [http://nocleanfeed.com/](http://nocleanfeed.com/) > > Funny how people always like to talk about how backwards America is compared to Europe, often referring with admiration to Europe’s socialism as a virtue. I think this kind of shit is a great reminder of what happens when you decide to invite the government to take control of your life. I don’t have any dog in this fight - Norway not being EU - but aren’t you lot having trouble with net neutrality, yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/8 "2009-01-15T22:03:34Z")
So, a non-governmental body, the IWF, adds certain pages to a blacklist, as they contain indecent images of children. Certain ISP’s (not all of them) within the UK are too zealous with the banning, based on IWF data, and this is somehow like the Great Firewall of China? There is no “censorship” here, nor totalitarianism; get some perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/9 "2009-01-15T22:18:03Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > I don’t have any dog in this fight - Norway not being EU - but aren’t you lot having trouble with net neutrality, yourself? That’s a somewhat different topic related to bandwidth more than anything else, unless you’re thinking of, well, something different. > **[Net neutrality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality)** > > Net neutrality, sometimes referred to as network neutrality, is the principle that Internet service providers (ISPs) must treat all Internet communications equally, offering users and online content providers consistent transfer rates regardless of content, website, platform, application, type of equipment, source address, destination address, or method of communication (i.e., without price discrimination). Net neutrality was advocated for in the 1990s by the presidential administration Suppo... ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/10 "2009-01-16T00:32:17Z")
> [@Wiltshire](#): > > The UK is building an infrastructure like the Great Firewall of China. And fucks it up. What? This is a company providing a service to another company that provides a service to customers. Yes, it’s a stupid service, badly implemented, but customers are free to find an ISP that doesn’t implement a stupid filtering policy. What has this got to do with the UK as a whole? Nothing. Oh, Capt. Ridley has beaten me to it. Still, it bears repeating. Anyway, I’m on Be internet and can access the wayback machine perfectly fine. I’m a mite peeved that they’ve implemented a silent proxy that’s feeding spoofed 404 errors for blocked sites, however, and will seriously consider switching providers. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/11 "2009-01-16T01:37:27Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Also, they do have a bit of a hard-on for Wikipedia, most specifically the way that any negative information about founder Jimmy Wales and the history of Wikipedia is instantly removed from the site Really? Instantly? > [@](#): > > and also regarding the tendency of some Wiki moderators and senior editor types to arbitrarily ban people who make edits they don’t like on certain topics, even when the edits are accurate. ‘Accurate’ and ‘cited’ are two different things. ‘Accurate’ and ‘likely to get them sued’ are, unfortunately, sometimes the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Wiltshire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea5d25/32.png) [@Wiltshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiltshire)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/12 "2009-01-16T02:20:54Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > So, a non-governmental body, the IWF, adds certain pages to a blacklist, as they contain indecent images of children. Certain ISP’s (not all of them) within the UK are too zealous with the banning, based on IWF data, and this is somehow like the Great Firewall of China? There is no “censorship” here, nor totalitarianism; get some perspective. “Perspective” is just a different type of (geometrical) distortion… The filter routers through which your traffic gets hijacked should be the same technology that they have installed in China. Not somehow like. The same. It’s just a different group of people who gets the power to control what you see, though it’s not necessarily used, yet. Now it’s “indecency”. (Why did you call it “indecent images”? Aren’t we talking about “illegal child porn” anymore? So we’re already at “indecency” as a criterion for blocking? No? That’s not what you meant? Ah. You _don’t_ support the blocking of websites with “indecent images” of children, then? You’re a fucking pervert. How can you defend people’s access to “indecent images”! See how easy this slippery slope is going?) What next? Sites with defamatory content? Pages from countries where assisted suicide is legal? Forums that describe drug use? Wikipedia’s articles on these drugs? Wikipedia’s articles on explosives? Unlicensed gambling sites? Copyright-infringing sites? Blocks of softporn depending on the local time of day? Stories about skeletons, demons, and evil spirits, because these are “harmful to the psychological health of adolescents”? Political speech that disturbs “public peace and harmony”? These things have all been suggested and/or implemented for blacklisting and regulation of their online accessibility. Lobby groups will happily suggest them again and again, to any blacklist administrators who listen. If the providers have their filter centrals already paid and installed, we may as well make the most of them. Think of the children. Where’s _your_ threshold when you say NO? > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Anyway, I’m on Be internet and can access the wayback machine perfectly fine. I’m a mite peeved that they’ve implemented a silent proxy that’s feeding spoofed 404 errors for blocked sites, however, and will seriously consider switching providers. You want to switch to an ISP that may _not_ be filtering indecent images of children!? You’re a fucking pervert too. Anyway, you _can’t_ switch if access blocking becomes compulsory. It’s already the case in China. It’s going to be the case in Germany, Australia, and who knows elsewhere. These “customers” won’t _get_ this sort of “service option”. Nah. Can’t see the beginning of total control. Oookay… ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/13 "2009-01-16T02:22:54Z")
Measures like this only foil the newest of the new to the net, so just look at it as incentive for the youth of tomorrow to learn l33t 5k!llz. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/14 "2009-01-16T02:30:27Z")
> [@Wiltshire](#): > > You want to switch to an ISP that may _not_ be filtering indecent images of children!? You’re a fucking pervert too. Anyway, you _can’t_ switch if access blocking becomes compulsory. It’s already the case in China. It’s going to be the case in Germany, Australia, and who knows elsewhere. These “customers” won’t _get_ this sort of “service option”. Nah. Can’t see the beginning of total control. Oookay… Look, take a deep breath, have a nice sleep, maybe a cup of tea, and come back when you’re not acting like a fruitcake. Deep breaths. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/15 "2009-01-16T04:32:04Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Really? Instantly? Give me a fucking break. It was a term of art, a figure of speech. If you couldn’t work that out, you’re not as smart as i thought. > [@Derleth](#): > > ‘Accurate’ and ‘cited’ are two different things. ‘Accurate’ and ‘likely to get them sued’ are, unfortunately, sometimes the same thing. According to _The Register_, some of the stuff they delete is both accurate _and_ cited. And, in the United States at least, accuracy is an absolute defense to a defamation charge. Look, i have no particular hatred for Wikipedia, and while i read _The Reg_ on occasion, i’m not looking to be their prime defender, so if you’re going to take offense at their position, do it with them, not with me. ---
**Author:** ![Wiltshire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea5d25/32.png) [@Wiltshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiltshire)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/16 "2009-01-16T10:57:11Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Look, take a deep breath, have a nice sleep, maybe a cup of tea, and come back when you’re not acting like a fruitcake. Deep breaths. Okay, I slept. Had a nice big cup of green tea. I’m still breathing. And your arguments about “customer service” and “free choice” are _still_ bullshit. Or you’re _still_ a fucking pervert. Your “choice”. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/17 "2009-01-16T11:12:18Z")
Nope, still distinctly fruity, with a hint of false dilemma on the side. Maybe switch to Bovril. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/18 "2009-01-16T11:16:34Z")
> [@Wiltshire](#): > > You want to switch to an ISP that may _not_ be filtering indecent images of children!? You’re a fucking pervert too. Anyway, you _can’t_ switch if access blocking becomes compulsory. It’s already the case in China. It’s going to be the case in Germany, Australia, and who knows elsewhere. These “customers” won’t _get_ this sort of “service option”. Nah. Can’t see the beginning of total control. Oookay… Not an ISP that doesn’t block those, but one which says “Page blocked” when it’s blocked and “Page not found” when it’s not found. Doesn’t seem like so much to ask, really. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/19 "2009-01-16T11:16:45Z")
> [@Wiltshire](#): > > “Perspective” is just a different type of (geometrical) distortion… Cute. > [@](#): > > The filter routers through which your traffic gets hijacked should be the same technology that they have installed in China. Not somehow like. The same. It’s just a different group of people who gets the power to control what you see, though it’s not necessarily used, yet. Ah, I was thinking you were going for something more metaphorical than a strict comparison of what hardware was being used to implement the website blocking. Obviously British police forces, because they carry prisoners off to jail, in vans powered by petrol engines, are _just like the Stasi_! > [@](#): > > Now it’s “indecency”. (Why did you call it “indecent images”? Aren’t we talking about “illegal child porn” anymore? So we’re already at “indecency” as a criterion for blocking? No? That’s not what you meant? Ah. You _don’t_ support the blocking of websites with “indecent images” of children, then? You’re a fucking pervert. How can you defend people’s access to “indecent images”! See how easy this slippery slope is going?) What next? It’s a term of art, in the legal profession, in the UK. (See [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Children_Act_1978#Definition_of_an_indecent_photograph).) Stop babbling. ---
**Author:** ![Wiltshire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea5d25/32.png) [@Wiltshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiltshire)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438/20 "2009-01-16T19:46:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Not an ISP that doesn’t block those, but one which says “Page blocked” when it’s blocked and “Page not found” when it’s not found. Doesn’t seem like so much to ask, really. Doesn’t seem like so much to ask either, really, not to screw up entire websites when they’re… um, “enhancing your browsing experience”. You think you’ll find an ISP that guarantees proper working error pages when they can’t get even _this_ little detail right? Good luck with that. Aren’t you running out of ISP choices already? You’re actively seeking an ISP with the potential to accidentally corrupt your service instead of simply leaving your traffic alone. Probably you’d even pay extra. (Well _someone_ has to pay for this stuff. Guess who.) Because they have prettier block notification pages. Like [this](http://www.flickr.com/photos/seanbonner/67663813/). And here they call _me_ fruitcake… > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Cute. Thank you. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Ah, I was thinking you were going for something more metaphorical than a strict comparison of what hardware was being used to implement the website blocking. Obviously British police forces, because they carry prisoners off to jail, in vans powered by petrol engines, are _just like the Stasi_! A country where the law enforcement creates DNA databases of innocent children, can hack into your computer without a warrant, uses surveillance on suspected litterers and justifies it with laws against terrorists… No, the comparison never suggested itself. Won’t ever, no matter what happens next. You’re right, it’s silly. - Well, suppose a free country _was_ gradually turning into an intimidated surveillance society where people become controllable through Stasi-like police powers. If this _was_ happening, in what ways _would_ it become apparent? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collateral-damage-as-uk-providers-censor-internet-archive/481438.md?page=2)