# Collective bargaining is national policy of our country - accept it or Bite me. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122 "2003-08-10T01:30:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/101 "2003-08-12T11:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > **I don’t get what you’re asking. Most people work because they would like to live at a standard of living slightly above wearing rags and living in a shack with dirt floors. And _you_ calling someone rude is quite ironic.** I don’t know where you’re getting the rags and shack bit. Most folks who dress in rags don’t have a shack, they live on the street. Don’t you consider being forced to live pretty much like an animal to be a form of duress? As for the “rude” business, why, it’s so amazing. You go into the pit and call people’s posts stupid and get flamed. Who’d a thunk it? **Or maybe, just _maybe_ they _want_ to be doctors or lawyers? Did that thought even enter your little delusional head? Maybe they want to save lives and help people?** I’m sure they do. People also want to be rock musicians and movie stars and go through great privations to get there. But most people do considerably less interesting work for a living. They sort papers. They enter data into comptuer programs. Increasingly, they work in the service industry. Your notion that just because some small percentage of people have jobs they enjoy or find fulfilling does nothing to address all the people that don’t. What about those poor Third World fuckers working in all our chicken processing plants? I’m sure they’re deliriously happy for the chance to actually make money by working. But do ya think it’s a good way to live? Are you OK with that? Makes ya feel good inside, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/102 "2003-08-12T12:08:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > **I don’t know where you’re getting the rags and shack bit. Most folks who dress in rags don’t have a shack, they live on the street. Don’t you consider being forced to live pretty much like an animal to be a form of duress?** You’ve correctly identified that people have to work to earn money. Well spotted. You’ve also pointed out that the alternative to this is to live in poverty, possibly even on the streets. This too is true. Now can you explain to me why the above is a bad thing. For bonus points, please also explain your alternative to the current form of capitalism for the allocation, distribution and production of goods. Please take your time, because following your earlier revelation that work is slavery I’m amusing myself by whipping my staff and making them work in fields. Hopefully this hardship and trauma will lead to them creating new song styles that will in a hundred years be the foundation of popular music. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/103 "2003-08-12T12:10:40Z")
You know EC, you could have just ranted about your shitty job like everyone else - you might even have got some sympathy. I fear for my sanity asking you this, but just what the hell _do_ you think people should do to survive, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/104 "2003-08-12T12:11:51Z")
Yep, still hasn’t laid out a thesis. > [@](#): > > _From myself_ > > Question, EC: > > 1. How, if no one had to work, would services get performed? > > 2. How, if no one had to work, would basic needs be met? > > 3. What accounting system would society use if not some sort of valuation called money? > > Seriously, you’re not even laying out a thesis for us to respond to. Calm down and lay out what changes you would make that would lead to your ideal world. Hell, even tell us what your ideal world would be. Then we can discuss. I’m willing if you are. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/105 "2003-08-12T12:43:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > **So now I’m evil? And actually, I called your argument stupid. You I left alone. Something I note you didn’t do in return. I often note the insecure turn to personal attacks.** Go back a bit to I think one of lezler’s posts, where she combined your name and mine in boldface with no punctuation, creating “Jonathan evil”. In short, it was her idea. For the record, I don’t think you’re evil, I just think you’re wrong. \*\*Question, EC: 1. How, if no one had to work, would services get performed?\*\* You guys are taking bits of what I’ve said and built a vision of a socialist paradise from them which I do not happen to share. I’m not saying this is the way it’s going to be because we’re going to adopt this marvelous new plan for society. I’m saying this is the way technology is headed. How will we cope with it? I’m not sure. I can see this society coming about entirely through capitalism, to tell you the truth. What makes you so sure that the trend toward increasing automation in the production of essential goods and services is going to stop at some marvellously convenient point that will keep everyone employed? What makes that such a whacky assumption? What people need to survive are food, shelter and clothing. They want more, of course, but that’s what they need. All of these things are increasingly provided by automated industries whose workers are a tiny fraction of the workforce. The exception would be shelter, but I expect that’ll get automated sooner or later, too. If everyone were guaranteed food, shelter and clothing for life – albeit, plain food, Spartan shleter and inexpensive clothing – I think most people would STILL work for a living. They’d want goods and services beyond the bare minimum, if only to assuage their egos. But they wouldn’t be under duress. They would be making a choice. And that makes ALL the difference. (I’m sure some people, given the opportunity to survive at a subsistence level and no more without working, would choose not to work. But I don’t think it would be a significant portion of the population. People liek their bling-bling and their ego boo. Naturally employer-employee relations will change under those circumstances, which I think will be a fine thing all round.) I’m sure there will always be SOME need for employment that isn’t voluntary, work that has to be done if things are to proceed, but I suspect that will eventually amount to some small fraction of the available workforce, who might work at it 5 years before going on to some more voluntary work. 1. How, if no one had to work, would basic needs be met? OK, back in the ancient world if you were a rich dude and you wanted to stay that way, you hired a bunch of slaves and they farmed or made clothing or armor or mined or whatever the hell. Over the course of human history, this has been the way things happened, even though the workers weren’t always called slaves, right up until the industrial age. The industrial age created the option of using machines to replace hand labor. This temporarily created enormous human suffering, but then, the widespread slavery that preceded it was no picnic, either. Adjustments were made in how poeple lived and they’re still being made, because we’re not at the end of the process started by the industrial age yet. We’re close now to the point where factories will be almost entirely automated. Essentially if you’re a rich dude and you want to get richer by making blivets, you’ll use some of your capital to buy an automated factory that has maybe three engineers as employees. You’ll buy trainloads of blivetium and crapolaite from other rich dudes who own automated mining and processing faciltiies. The result will be a huge supply of blivets produced by very few actual human beings. These blivets will the be able to be made cheaply and spew onto the marketplace. For the blivets, subsutitute utensils, lamps, furniture, golden snackos, whatever. Eventually – maybe 50 years down the road – virtually all manufacturing will work like this. And the only people who will make money producing this cornucopia of goods and supplies will be rich dudes and their very few employees. What will everyone else do to make money to buy this stuff? Will the service sector become 9/10 of the economy? Will that make economic sense? Eventually (actually pretty quickly) the capitalists will tumble to the fact that they need people to have money in order to buy their blivets – Henry Ford tumbled to that one a long time ago. And ways will be found to make it possible for most folks to buy blivets, and convince them that they desperately need to buy blivets. I think this is what is happening gradually right now. So, at what point do we call a spade a spade and admit that most folks don’t need to be working to have what they need to survive? The heated emotions that these points arouse in conservatives makes me think they hope the answer to that question is “never.” Certainly not now, or any time close to it. **3) What accounting system would society use if not some sort of valuation called money?** Details, details. I doubt we’ll switch over from money, there’ll just be a different logic behind how it is obtained. \*\*Seriously, you’re not even laying out a thesis for us to respond to. Calm down and lay out what changes you would make that would lead to your ideal world. Hell, even tell us what your ideal world would be. Then we can discuss. \*\* [/QUOTE] I’m not upset. I’m calling you names because you’re calling me names. You are under no obligation to respect me or my ideas, but I’m under no obligation to respect you or yours. You want me to stop with the snarkin’, you know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/106 "2003-08-12T12:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fionn \* > \*\*Was this an attempt at snarkiness, or do your whacked-out economic concepts include everyone as children as well as slaves? Will I be a grown-up if I agree with you, or will I be a grown-up when I throw off the shackles of the Man and cease to work under duress? > > In the latter case, it could probably happen in about ten years. In the former, there’s not a chance in hell. \*\* You are getting there. You laid out two steps to maturity. A kid gets everything for nothing and would like to keep things going on those terms. As a teen or young adult, you learn that you have gto work to get what you want. But you don’t challenge the rules under which you work, you simply accept them. A mature adult looks around and asks … is what we’re up to working? Could we maybe do things a little better? Does that rule make sense? Is it in line with what’s possible technically? Are we getting all we can out of ourselves and making it possible for everyone to living decently and contributing to society in a rewarding way, for them and for us? Needless to say, not everyone reaches that final stage. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/107 "2003-08-12T12:56:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\* Please take your time, because following your earlier revelation that work is slavery I’m amusing myself by whipping my staff and making them work in fields. . \*\* You still give them one day in seven to rest, right? That’s what Moses said we should do. That is if the movie is to believed . _The strong make many The weak make few The dead make none_ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/108 "2003-08-12T12:58:17Z")
there are several other posts here, but they have no intellectual content, so I will ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/109 "2003-08-12T13:00:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\* Don’t you consider being forced to live pretty much like an animal to be a form of duress? > > \*\* Who is ‘forced’ to live that way? I will agree that some get that way due to adverse and extreme circumstances. And some folks actually _choose_ that way of life, although I’m those folks are few. But forced?? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/110 "2003-08-12T13:01:21Z")
In short then, all tasks will be automated, and the replacement for money as a barter system can be dismissed as just a detail. I think there may be a few tiny holes in this argument as an all encompassing economic theory. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/111 "2003-08-12T13:03:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*there are several other posts here, but they have no intellectual content, so I will ignore them. \*\* And yet, most of them are your posts. Anyone remember when we we used to have this discussion with **Olentzero** , but he was, you know, intelligent about it? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/112 "2003-08-12T13:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Who is ‘forced’ to live that way? I will agree that some get that way due to adverse and extreme circumstances. And some folks actually _choose_ that way of life, although I’m those folks are few. But forced?? \*\* If you are not rich, what will happen to you if you stop working. Of course, rich people get a free pass because some member of their family was so productive that they are actually able to support the whole clan indefinitely on what they did. This is essentially what tech is doing on a society-wide basis. the only question is, what’s the best way to adapt to it. I feel our present system is quite wasteful and inefficient, though admittedly better than the extremes of socialism. I think some of the European socialist democracies may be closer to the mark than we are, but they’re not there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/113 "2003-08-12T13:06:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*In short then, all tasks will be automated, and the replacement for money as a barter system can be dismissed as just a detail. > > I think there may be a few tiny holes in this argument as an all encompassing economic theory. \*\* Feel free to fill them in. I’m open to suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/114 "2003-08-12T13:08:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*You still give them one day in seven to rest, right? That’s what Moses said we should do. That is if the movie is to believed > . > _The strong make many > The weak make few > The dead make none_ \*\* Coo, just as well you let us know. I’m still a bit new to this despotic slavemaster lark. You don’t happen to know if this Droit de seigneur stuff is compulsory do you? I don’t think the missus would be too happy with it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/115 "2003-08-12T13:12:04Z")
Nah, Cecil spoke of it as a myth. So you’re covered, there, Gary. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/116 "2003-08-12T13:13:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Feel free to fill them in. I’m open to suggestions. \*\* Okey dokey. I’d suggest then a barter based system, using a monetary unit as an exchange token. Supply and demand will probably help to find good determinations of comparative values. for goods, products and services. I’d also suggest a fairly self controlled marketplace, with minimal government intervention. Hope this works for you. Seems to have worked fairly well for a few years now, so might be a bit more watertight than sitting around waiting till machines can do all the tedious work. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/117 "2003-08-12T14:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Evil Captor_\*\*Go back a bit to I think one of lezler’s posts, where she combined your name and mine in boldface with no punctuation, creating “Jonathan evil”. In short, it was her idea. For the record, I don’t think you’re evil, I just think you’re wrong. \*\* Um, no I didn’t. > [@](#): > > Thanks for bringing that up Jonathan, evil is pretty much arguing against working for a living. Work on your reading comprehension before accusing people of things. As far as your “theory” goes, you never addressed why people _today_ before your 1984esque scenerio are essentially slaves. What I get is that you’re calling capitalism slavery. If that’s your opinion, why don’t you just say so? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/118 "2003-08-12T14:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Eventually – maybe 50 years down the road – virtually all manufacturing will work like this. \*\* So, you’re saying in 50 years, virtually all work will be automated? Yes, yes, I can see it now…and in 1965, we can all celebrate Christmas on the Moon Base! Please, we are NEVER going to get a fully automated system of manufacturing in a capitalist society, especially not here in the US. People will fight to keep their “slave” positions, and I’m sure Big Business will always have some way of halting such “progress”. > [@](#): > > _Origianlly posted by Evil Captor_ > **A mature adult looks around and asks … is what we’re up to working? Could we maybe do things a little better? Does that rule make sense? Is it in line with what’s possible technically? Are we getting all we can out of ourselves and making it possible for everyone to living decently and contributing to society in a rewarding way, for them and for us?** Yes, they do, but often times it’s in terms of their own jobs…how can I increase productivity? How can I increase sales? Stuff like that. And then there are those out there who think on the grander scale and create new ideas and inventions to help benefit society. Of course, these people actually do something with their ideas, not just sit in their basement and then finish off the bong. And many of them also come from this “rich” demographic you seem to detest so much. And I’d like to join the crowd that believes your little “slavery” schtick has really run dry. “What happens if you don’t work?” What do you think, jackass? If you don’t work, you can’t earn a living. That’s not slavery, that’s capitalism! Slaves don’t get paid. Slaves don’t get benefits. Slaves don’t own property, and have no personal rights whatsoever. Everyone working in the US (as far as I know) has the right to own property, gets paid for their work (unless it’s volunteer), and has a slew of other rights and privileges slaves didn’t. The difference is, in a capitalist society, you are your own boss. Slaves had an oversear that made them work; the check out boy at the Burger Shack has himself. He doesn’t like his job, he leaves and gets another one. A slave doesn’t like his job…tough shit. I know some people feel they’re pigeonholed into a job and “can’t do anything else”, but those people aren’t trying, and have a lot more options then they care to look for. Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the “Hunter/Gatherer” type of society? Were they just “slaves” as well? I mean, they had to work to get food and find shelter. I mean, if they didn’t go out and kill a mamoth, or gather berries, they died. I mean, that just doesn’t sound fair to me. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/119 "2003-08-13T17:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Anyone remember when we we used to have this discussion with **Olentzero** , but he was, you know, intelligent about it? \*\* Thanks, I think… ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122/120 "2003-08-13T17:45:05Z")
I was hoping a vanity search would turn you up. 🙂 And it was definitely a compliment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/collective-bargaining-is-national-policy-of-our-country-accept-it-or-bite-me/194122.md?page=7)