# Colleen McCullough's 7th Masters of Rome novel: "Antony and Cleopatra" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2008, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249 "2008-01-04T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/21 "2008-03-05T16:16:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] This kind of book, like many Greek plays, is written on the assumption that the reader/viewer is already familiar with the general outline of the events. [/QUOTE] Oh sure - I was just going for the funny. But she goes much deeper than I had known about Roman history. For instance, I was not fully aware except in the cloudiest of ways about Gaius Marius, Sulla, the Cataline conspiracy, what Cato actually did in the Senate, etc. - so there are plenty of twists along the way in this book that are new for me - and one of the main reasons I enjoy them so much. I love the education I am getting while reading cool stuff. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/22 "2008-03-05T17:18:45Z")
That’s why I love historical fiction so much…lovely way of getting a good education\* and a good story at the same time. \*I know some historical facts are altered for the sake of the story…so as long as you take what you read with a grain of salt, you’re good to go. **Brain** , in the book, Caesarion tells Octavian he’ll pay tribute as a client-king. I took that to mean including selling grain too. And I didn’t think Egypt was a big grain supplier anyway…I thought the Romans got most of their grain from Sicily and Africa? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/23 "2008-03-05T18:10:31Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] **Brain** , in the book, Caesarion tells Octavian he’ll pay tribute as a client-king. I took that to mean including selling grain too. And I didn’t think Egypt was a big grain supplier anyway…I thought the Romans got most of their grain from Sicily and Africa? [/QUOTE] No. Egypt’s nickname was “the breadbasket of Rome” And I don’t think Caesarion would have been allowed to live no matter what he looked like. As Augustus supposedly said, “Two Caesars is too many”. This is especially true because of the Donations of Alexandria. As long as Caesarion lived, they, and he, would have been a problem for Augustus. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/24 "2008-03-05T19:14:37Z")
Maybe McCullough glossed over that, but I got the sense that Caesarion was happy to be Pharoah of Egypt and wouldn’t have bothered with the Donations, especially since his half-siblings were taken to Rome to be raised as proper little Romans by Octavia. ---
**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/25 "2008-03-05T20:20:02Z")
Do you think _Antony and Cleopatra_ would stand alone pretty well? I read the first three Masters of Rome books years ago - do I really need to re-read them before tackling this? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/26 "2008-03-05T21:55:39Z")
I loved the entire series, and while I think you could read it as a stand alone, you should read _The October Horse_, which is where Octavian enters the stage. And to appreciate _The October Horse_, you should read _Caesar_, which covers Caesar’s conquest of the Gauls. And if you didn’t read _Caesar’s Women_, you missed out on a lot, including Caesar and Servilia’s affair. So, just start at the beginning again and work your way through…which is exactly what I did! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/27 "2008-03-05T22:16:26Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] And I didn’t think Egypt was a big grain supplier anyway…I thought the Romans got most of their grain from Sicily and Africa? [/QUOTE] Before Egypt was brought under Roman control, yes. But their produce was negligible compared with Egypt’s. The Nile Valley is the richest farmland on the Mediterranean. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/28 "2008-03-05T22:32:38Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Maybe McCullough glossed over that, but I got the sense that Caesarion was happy to be Pharoah of Egypt and wouldn’t have bothered with the Donations, especially since his half-siblings were taken to Rome to be raised as proper little Romans by Octavia. [/QUOTE] Maybe, but what he wanted was irrelevant. As long as he was alive, there would be people who could take up his case. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/29 "2008-03-06T15:46:26Z")
Well, that is a shame. As McCullough portrayed Caesarion, he seemed like a very nice young man, with his father’s intelligence and none of his mother’s ambitions, who might have done wonders for Egypt. I liked seeing Herod too…I kept waiting for some outraged letter from a senator visiting Judea, about how Herod had killed a bunch of male babies for some strange fear of a prophecy, but I think it was a bit too early for that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/30 "2008-03-06T16:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Well, that is a shame. As McCullough portrayed Caesarion, he seemed like a very nice young man, with his father’s intelligence and none of his mother’s ambitions, who might have done wonders for Egypt. [/QUOTE] Well, in reality, we know next to nothing about him, so if it would make you feel better to think of him as an imperious idiot, you’re free to. 🙂 And, yeah, Colleen McCullough really does have a crush on Julius Caesar, doesn’t she? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/31 "2008-03-06T17:20:27Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] In the end, Agrippa marries Marcella, Octavian’s niece. I thought he married Julia, Octavian’s daughter…is that later on? [/QUOTE] To answer your question there, Agrippa’s first wife was a woman named Caecelia Attica, who was the daughter of the equite (and Cicero’s friend) Titus Pomponius Atticus. They had a daughter named Vipsania Agrippina, who’d go on to be pretty important in her own right (as the Emperor Tiberius’s first wife). He then married Octavian’s niece Claudia Marcella. We don’t know for sure what had happened to Caecelia Attica…maybe she died, maybe he divorced her, we don’t know. Anyway, he and Claudia Marcella had a daughter, Marcellina. We don’t know much about her, but she married the Roman general Varus, the general who got killed, along with his legions, in the Teutonberg Forest. He then went on to divorce her and married Octavian’s daughter Julia. They had several children: Gaius Caesar, Lucius Caesar (Gaius and Lucius were Octavian’s first heirs, but they both died young), Julia the Younger (who was involved in a pretty nasty adultery scandal and spent most of her life exiled to a small island), Aggripina Major (Caligula’s mom! Nero’s grandma!), and Agrippa Postumus (who also got exiled to an island by Augustus and was killed by his guards when they learned of Augustus’s death, probably on order of Tiberius, who wanted to remove a rival). ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/32 "2008-03-06T17:41:37Z")
Yeah, I guess she was very sympathetic toward Caesar. I’m a bit confused about her drawings of the characters…some of them are rather good and some of them are rather…not. Thanks for the explanation on Agrippa’s wives…I knew he married Julia eventually, but it wasn’t mentioned in the book, so I assumed it happened “after.” I liked the comparison between Caesar and Octavian when it came to close friends. Caesar, although friends with Crassus, never had a Best Friend Forever, probably due to the canard of selling himself to get ships from King Nicomedes. Because of this, he was careful never to appear to be too “close” with a man, which may have made it easier for the assassins to get close enough to kill him. Whereas Octavian had quite the little clique, and seemed to be a very good friend to those loyal to him. I also find it interesting that Agrippa, although quite the talented young man, would never have risen to the heights he did except for Octavian because of his birth. How many other potential Agrippas were out there, languishing on the vine, just because they didn’t have the right ancestry? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/33 "2008-03-06T18:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] He then went on to divorce her and married Octavian’s daughter Julia. They had several children: Gaius Caesar, Lucius Caesar (Gaius and Lucius were Octavian’s first heirs, but they both died young), Julia the Younger (who was involved in a pretty nasty adultery scandal and spent most of her life exiled to a small island) . . . [/QUOTE] No, that was [Julia the **Elder**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_the_Elder) (exiled for cheating on her third husband, Tiberius, later emperor). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/34 "2008-03-06T20:51:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, that was [Julia the **Elder**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_the_Elder) (exiled for cheating on her third husband, Tiberius, later emperor). [/QUOTE] That was both Julias, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/35 "2008-03-06T21:02:25Z")
Hmmph. Livia didn’t poison ANYONE in this book! What a rip. By the way is there any evidence that Livia actually poisoned anyone? How much of the Liva==poisoner in “I, Claudius” comes from evidence, how much from contemporary rumors and swiftboating, and how much did Graves just invent? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249/36 "2008-03-06T21:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Hmmph. Livia didn’t poison ANYONE in this book! What a rip. By the way is there any evidence that Livia actually poisoned anyone? How much of the Liva==poisoner in “I, Claudius” comes from evidence, how much from contemporary rumors and swiftboating, and how much did Graves just invent? [/QUOTE] The story comes down from [Tacitus and Dio Cassius.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livia#Livia.2C_Roman_empress) But they were merely repeating rumors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleen-mcculloughs-7th-masters-of-rome-novel-antony-and-cleopatra/432249.md?page=1)