# College Athletes Can Unionize **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628 "2014-03-26T20:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/21 "2014-03-27T17:39:55Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > I’m not sure I understand. Having a job is a privilege and not a right, too. How does the distinction between rights and privileges play into your reasoning? In what world is making a living a privilige? Now, not everyone can have their desired job, but we all have the right to not live on the streets. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/22 "2014-03-27T17:53:36Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s not what he said, though. Ohio St. and Alabama are not the arguments against this. Buffalo and North Texas and Utah St. are. Small, low budget schools that struggle to recruit both coaches and players, where letting schools pay athletes to play for them would essentially just drive them out of business, or at least out of competition. Then let them drop to Division II, and make a concerted effort to ensure that student-athletes are just that, rather than athletes who are required to maintain academic eligibility, but are pressured to make sure that their courses don’t interfere with their sports participation. I think it was about 25 years ago that I read about a U. of Maryland football player who’d asked for a redshirt year so he could get a handle on his course work, but his coach told him, ‘no, that’s not what you’re here for’ in practically those words. That made it pretty clear to me just how far it had already gone. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/23 "2014-03-27T18:02:01Z")
Hopefully this will be upheld on appeal. The whole notion of the student-athlete feels like a scam to force kids to work for little pay ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/24 "2014-03-27T18:12:19Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Agree completely! Until recently I assumed that athletes were qualified to attend the schools they were playing for. At a handful of schools they are (somewhat ironically, Northwestern players would usually be considered academically legitimate students - my former roommate was a star running back at NU with a 3.4 GPA in electrical engineering). But even those students are recruited more for their football ability than anything else, good students being more plentiful than good running backs. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/25 "2014-03-27T18:20:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s not what he said, though. Ohio St. and Alabama are not the arguments against this. Buffalo and North Texas and Utah St. are. Small, low budget schools that struggle to recruit both coaches and players, where letting schools pay athletes to play for them would essentially just drive them out of business, or at least out of competition. Do you think that Buffalo, North Texas, and Utah State are competitive with Ohio State and Alabama now? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/26 "2014-03-27T19:07:49Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Is it necessarily bad that they will be driven out of competition? No, it’s not. But I think it’s probably ideal for the NCAA to maintain pressure on athletic departments to not become gigantic corporations just out to make a buck, which this ruling has the possibility of going towards. > [@etv78](#): > > Because they are participating in something outside the mission of a university? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Universities have very broad missions, one of which is to provide recreational and extra-curricular activities for their students. Team sports is a logical result of that. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Hopefully this will be upheld on appeal. The whole notion of the student-athlete feels like a scam to force kids to work for little pay “Force”? Who’s being forced? If they want to be paid, why don’t they just enter the draft, play in Canada, or go off on some other worthwhile venture? > [@Enginerd](#): > > Do you think that Buffalo, North Texas, and Utah State are competitive with Ohio State and Alabama now? Of course not - and they never will. Is it necessary for them to be? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/27 "2014-03-27T19:18:50Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > No, it’s not. But I think it’s probably ideal for the NCAA to maintain pressure on athletic departments to not become gigantic corporations just out to make a buck, which this ruling has the possibility of going towards. I’m wondering how that would be different from the current NCAA football and basketball situation? In terms of greed and money, about all that would change under this system is that the money might get spread around a little more to some of the people with the actual sporting talent. The idea that the NCAA, at least for top-level football and basketball, might act as some sort of principled opponent of Mammon is hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/28 "2014-03-27T19:23:52Z")
**Munch** -You need to be ACADEMICALLY eligible to participate in extra-curriculars. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/29 "2014-03-27T19:27:25Z")
[Check out just how many states whose HIGHEST PAID public employee is a sports coach.](http://deadspin.com/infographic-is-your-states-highest-paid-employee-a-co-489635228) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/30 "2014-03-27T19:31:35Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > “Force”? Who’s being forced? If they want to be paid, why don’t they just enter the draft, play in Canada, or go off on some other worthwhile venture? It would be fine if the decision to pay or not pay students was left entirely up to the individual college/university. But instead we have collusion by members of the NCAA to prohibit this. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/31 "2014-03-27T19:57:05Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > If they want to be paid, why don’t they just enter the draft, play in Canada, or go off on some other worthwhile venture? Why should they? Being paid what the market will bear based on an open market in which there is no collusion between employers and in which there is not a massive power imbalance between the negotiating parties seems pretty reasonable to me. If the employer did not want collective bargaining, it should have changed its ways a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/32 "2014-03-27T20:04:10Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > **Munch** -You need to be ACADEMICALLY eligible to participate in extra-curriculars. First off, this is total nonsense - there are plenty of students who take advantage of extracurricular offerings without being academically eligible. Secondly, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I responded to you with. Could you make the tiniest of efforts to maybe post a fully formed and coherent post for once? > [@Muffin](#): > > Why should they? Being paid what the market will bear based on an open market in which there is no collusion between employers and in which there is not a massive power imbalance between the negotiating parties seems pretty reasonable to me. If the employer did not want collective bargaining, it should have changed its ways a long time ago. Absolutely valid - I’m just stating that under the current rules, no one is “forcing” student-athletes to play, as YogSogoth suggested. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/33 "2014-03-27T20:08:01Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Universities have very broad missions, one of which is to provide recreational and extra-curricular activities for their students. Team sports is a logical result of that. > > “Force”? Who’s being forced? If they want to be paid, why don’t they just enter the draft, play in Canada, or go off on some other worthwhile venture? & > [@Munch](#): > > Absolutely valid - I’m just stating that under the current rules, no one is “forcing” student-athletes to play, as YogSogoth suggested. 1. There’s nothing that states that the specific mission of the University that provide(s) recreational and extra-curricular activities" cannot be modified, or even removed. 2. Your value in the draft is based upon a number of factors, not the least of which was how you performed in college. Merely saying to an 18yo “well, you can just enter the draft” doesn’t remove the inequality put upon him by the NCAA+NFL collusion. An untested person won’t even be drafted - he will have to make the team as a walk-on. And we know how many times that happens, right? Just enough to make it memorable when it does. And when does that guy become the highest paid player on the team? In the modern world, only when your name is Kurt Warner. Otherwise, forget about it. A football player, **if he wants to maximize his earnings in his chosen profession is compelled to go to school so he will be eligible for the draft**. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/34 "2014-03-27T20:12:36Z")
What is the difference between Division I Football and the various professional sports leagues such as the NFL, NBA, MLB and HNL? High level play? Huge fan base? Huge profits? The primary difference is that the employers via the NCAA have colluded to prevent college football players from being paid at market value. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/35 "2014-03-27T20:14:20Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Why should they? Being paid what the market will bear based on an open market in which there is no collusion between employers and in which there is not a massive power imbalance between the negotiating parties seems pretty reasonable to me. If the employer did not want collective bargaining, it should have changed its ways a long time ago. Colleges AREN’T football teams that just happen to have Chemistry departments! Your attitude makes no sense. If players hate school so much, go to a place that doesn’t care, until you can get into the league of your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/36 "2014-03-27T20:16:29Z")
So I was just watching _Outside the Lines_ and they had a guy on who said that this ruling only applies to private universities. State universities would fall under the states labor laws. Another guy said that in his opinion, as a labor lawyer, the written opinion of the NLRB judge was very good and hard to poke any holes in. I think one of the points about the players being employees was the fact that their compensation (scholarship) relied on them playing football and doing al the things required to be a football player. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/37 "2014-03-27T20:16:36Z")
**Munch** -Most people on say, the debate team, or school newspaper will actually have to be qualified to get a job once they leave. And the job they DO receive won’t allow their grandchildren to be set for life. So YOU need to at least make the effort to make an apples-to-apples comparison! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/38 "2014-03-27T20:23:10Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > So I was just watching _Outside the Lines_ and they had a guy on who said that this ruling only applies to private universities. State universities would fall under the states labor laws. Another guy said that in his opinion, as a labor lawyer, the written opinion of the NLRB judge was very good and hard to poke any holes in. I think one of the points about the players being employees was the fact that their compensation (scholarship) relied on them playing football and doing al the things required to be a football player. The logic is compelling. So much so that this ruling, imho, has largely settled the larger debate as to whether or not many student-athletes are, in fact, employees. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/39 "2014-03-27T20:27:00Z")
Business entities can’t collude to fix wages and then wave a “take it or leave it” banner that makes everything ok. Wage fixing is illegal and done on the widespread level that it is in Division 1 sports is unconscionable. We really should expect better from our institutions of higher learning. I know that’s naive but we really should expect them to act like good citizens. They’re the incubators of our next generations of leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628/40 "2014-03-27T20:33:49Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Absolutely valid - I’m just stating that under the current rules, no one is “forcing” student-athletes to play, as YogSogoth suggested. They’re not eligible for the NFL draft until they’ve been out of high school for at least two years, so that’s not an option for a lot of players. The CFL is a very different game from NFL or NCAA football, and there are only nine teams in the first place. The NCAA has a monopoly on NFL hopefuls, and they’re making billions of dollars on it. That system needs a complete overhaul, and that complete overhaul is coming - it’s just a matter of time. I’d like to see a professional football league (essentially the equivalent of baseball’s AAA leagues) come out of some of the FBS schools. Universities enter into research-based business ventures all the time, providing lab space, development advice and seed money, intellectual property consultation, etc. to researchers trying to capitalize on innovations they’ve made at their jobs. I think there are enough football factory schools to make up a 20 team league by adopting that kind of model, and there are enough NFL hopefuls who have little to no interest in a college education to fill those spots at market rates. If you create a league like that, then the schools choose to have either an amateur teams (which would have to be scaled back drastically from what they are now) or an associated professional team. I think the product that the remaining amateur teams put on the field would be a lot more entertaining as well. If you don’t have small schools agreeing to suffer a 75-3 whooping in return for a nice payday, the product can only get better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-athletes-can-unionize/684628.md?page=3)