# College : "C" grade analogy from professor. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 6, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551 "2011-06-06T21:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/41 "2011-06-07T07:13:28Z")
You’re trying to redefine the entire grading system. In every undergrad institution I know of, a C is a passing grade. It means that you’ve demonstrated a satisfactory knowledge of the material. I don’t know about med school, but undergrad engineers who get Cs graduate, get jobs, and design the bridges you drive over every day. Accountants who get Cs keep track of your money. Business majors who get Cs manage the stores you patronize every day. A C student gets a diploma and becomes a productive member of society. You claim that you’re against grade inflation, and you also claim that you won’t accept anything other than A work. How does that work? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/42 "2011-06-07T07:22:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Getting a 75 per cent is great when you’re a politician looking for votes, but a 75 isn’t great on a math test. I’ve taken math tests - in grad school, even - where 75% was a stellar score. At least it would have been, had anyone hit it. I’ve given a few, too. That doesn’t mean they’re badly designed tests Particularly for a grad class, I tend to assume that the students know the basic material. What I want from this kind of exam is to find out who can take those basics and extend them to the kind of problems that they haven’t seen. I test on stuff that wasn’t explicitly covered all the time, and it gives me a much better handle on who really understands and who’s just getting by. What do you learn from a test where everybody scores an 85 or better? To me, that’s a lousy test. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/43 "2011-06-07T07:36:20Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You’re trying to redefine the entire grading system. In every undergrad institution I know of, a C is a passing grade. It means that you’ve demonstrated a satisfactory knowledge of the material. I don’t know about med school, but undergrad engineers who get Cs graduate, get jobs, and design the bridges you drive over every day. Accountants who get Cs keep track of your money. Business majors who get Cs manage the stores you patronize every day. A C student gets a diploma and becomes a productive member of society. > > You claim that you’re against grade inflation, and you also claim that you won’t accept anything other than A work. How does that work? I accept As and Bs. Satisfactory is not meeting my expectations. I don’t take 82 or below. I give it back to the student and they can correct it. If they don’t, they get a zero. You fail my class if you want to, but you can’t pass without working for it. My exams are not easy, I taught ESL in a metro area school and I’m constantly thanked for my work. I put it _a lot_ of effort when I teach. My students (generally) appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/44 "2011-06-07T07:37:25Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You’re trying to redefine the entire grading system. In every undergrad institution I know of, a C is a passing grade. It means that you’ve demonstrated a satisfactory knowledge of the material. I don’t know about med school, but undergrad engineers who get Cs graduate, get jobs, and design the bridges you drive over every day. Accountants who get Cs keep track of your money. Business majors who get Cs manage the stores you patronize every day. A C student gets a diploma and becomes a productive member of society. > > You claim that you’re against grade inflation, and you also claim that you won’t accept anything other than A work. How does that work? > [@Enginerd](#): > > I’ve taken math tests - in grad school, even - where 75% was a stellar score. At least it would have been, had anyone hit it. I’ve given a few, too. > > That doesn’t mean they’re badly designed tests Particularly for a grad class, I tend to assume that the students know the basic material. What I want from this kind of exam is to find out who can take those basics and extend them to the kind of problems that they haven’t seen. I test on stuff that wasn’t explicitly covered all the time, and it gives me a much better handle on who really understands and who’s just getting by. > > What do you learn from a test where everybody scores an 85 or better? To me, that’s a lousy test. There’s a difference between testing to see where students are and testing for grades. I test where students are all the time. I expect my first _test_ to get a lot of F’s…but that score isn’t graded. If most kids fail the test, I use it for the ‘actual’ graded test. Exact same test. No shockers. No multiple choice, either. (Obviously math means changing around numbers and such, but I teach social studies.) ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/45 "2011-06-07T08:08:15Z")
Wait, do you teach high school? That’s a totally different learning environment. When you define C work as unacceptable, you’re inflating grades. By giving less capable students and slackers multiple tries to get things right, you’re devaluing the A’s earned by the really smart, hardworking kids who get it right on the first go around. If you’re not giving out C’s to average students, your A’s and B’s mean less than they should. It’s not surprising, I guess, but it makes my job harder when I get them in college. College students are adults, and they get to set their own priorities. I’d like for my class to be one of them, but I won’t take it personally if it isn’t. If Timmy wants to go out drinking Thursday night and scrawl down some chickenscratch to turn in Friday morning, I’ll grade the chickenscratch and move one. But I won’t give him another try - he made the decision and he gets to live with it. He’ll have more homework assignments to bring his grade up, but it’s ultimately his grade to earn. All I do is record it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/46 "2011-06-07T08:25:33Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Wait, do you teach high school? That’s a totally different learning environment. > > When you define C work as unacceptable, you’re inflating grades. **By giving less capable students and slackers multiple tries to get things right** , you’re devaluing the A’s earned by the really smart, hardworking kids who get it right on the first go around. If you’re not giving out C’s to average students, your A’s and B’s mean less than they should. I never said they get full points back. They get _some_. If a student fucks up the first round, then they aren’t getting an A when they return their paper to me. I just don’t take your shit if you are a) failing because you don’t get it or b) failing because you’re lazy. Why would I teach if you don’t get the material? Classes should be progressive - as in, we build on previous knowledge. In my grad program, if I get an 81 per cent I have to retake the class. In my classroom, if a kid gets a 79 per cent on an exam, he/she has to fix it for me to enter a grade. All students have to correct errors. Oh yeah, I’m also a fan of well-written essay exams. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/47 "2011-06-07T13:12:59Z")
When I was in grad school you were expected to keep a 3.0 GPA. If you made to many Cs you were out. I guess the point was that every student there was expected to be above average. At the end of the day though, the professors decide what grades everyone gets and my school had decided to only use the top end of the measuring stick so it looked like everybody was smart. I guess a really good school would only give out A, A- and A+ grades? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/48 "2011-06-07T13:58:57Z")
CitizenPained writes: \> So yeah, John Kerry’s C average at Yale isn’t impressive. I’m not sure why you’re picking particularly on John Kerry. Yeah, he didn’t get very good grades as an undergraduate. Like George W. Bush, he was a C+ student. He was recognized in college as a brilliant orator, winning prizes for his debating skills. He then joined the Navy and served in Vietnam. After leaving the Navy, he became known for his anti-war activism. He got into Boston College Law School and became a lawyer. I’m not sure what this proves except that it’s possible to be a C+ student (at Yale, admittedly) in college and yet have the skills to do very well after college. > **[John Kerry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry)** > > John Forbes Kerry (born December 11, 1943) is an American attorney, politician and diplomat who currently serves as the first U.S. Special Presidential Envoy for Climate. A member of the Forbes family and the Democratic Party, he previously served as the 68th United States secretary of state from 2013 to 2017 in the administration of Barack Obama and represented Massachusetts in the United States Senate from 1985 to 2013. Kerry was the Democratic nominee for president of the United States in ... [http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/benedetto/2005-06-10-benedetto\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/benedetto/2005-06-10-benedetto_x.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/49 "2011-06-07T14:27:33Z")
I guess it would be irresponsible for students in the lecture to paint 3 walls of the professors house and leave a CD player by the front door playing “Everybody Wants To Rule the World” on continuous loop. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/50 "2011-06-07T14:40:47Z")
Obviously, it depends on the context, as others have said. I still remember the shock of going from undergrad in university to law school. In my undergrad, it was _relatively_ easy to get good grades - if you chose your classes carefully to suit your interests. In law school, it was damn near impossible, no matter how hard you worked (thought it was also difficult to do really badly) - pretty well everyone got C’s and B’s, and those who got straight A’s (or failed) were, to put it mildly, unusual. In Law School, because of the rigidity of grading, you had to distinguish yourself not by getting better marks than the average (nearly impossible), but by doing extra-curricular stuff - working on the law review, working as a legal researcher for the profs, doing moot court, getting published, stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/51 "2011-06-07T14:44:28Z")
What if you paint all four walls and the ceiling, but when you paint the trim work you get just a bit of paint on the glass, then when using a razor blade to scrape the stray paint off you accidentally remove a glazier’s point? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/52 "2011-06-07T14:44:38Z")
**Wendell** , thank you for the biographical campaign talking points of John Kerry. I didn’t know _any_ of that before I voted for him [in the general] after I voted against him [in the primary]. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/53 "2011-06-07T14:58:00Z")
> [@YaraMateo](#): > > Good enough is enough if you’re happy to be average and go no where. If you want to be a sucess in your give field, you have to either strive to be the best or give your best. If you’re just going be unmemorable and average why bother? If “good enough” is enough, just go collect unemployment and welfare. That’s good enough. :rolleyes: > > I agree with the person who posted above me. If you can’t do better than a C (even if it’s just lack of trying) you shouldn’t be in college. Either get your shit together (if it’s lack of trying) or realize college isn’t high school the sequel. You don’t have to go. If you don’t belong there, you’re jut brining down the value of everyone’s degree. It’s like do you have to tell ugly people maybe entering a beauty contest is a bad idea? :smack: > > I’m not a lit major. I got one A- in college, from a professor that never returned a paper to me, forgot about meetings, and critiqued my papers for having too specific theses instead of making sweeping generalizations about the entire world’s history during, say, the 19th century :rolleyes:. Otherwise I was a straight-A student. Bear that in mind when I say that your post shows a serious lack of understanding of what an average grade means. It’s **impossible** for everyone to score above average. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/54 "2011-06-07T15:07:26Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I’m not sure what this proves except that it’s possible to be a C+ student (at Yale, admittedly) in college and yet have the skills to do very well after college. But maybe if he had made straight A’s he’d been president 🙂 This thread reads like the academic version of the sports world’s "gotta give 110 percent ! " ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/55 "2011-06-07T15:07:35Z")
There’s average relative to population and there’s ‘average’ as ‘so-so’. I agree with this: > [@](#): > > These changes in grading have had a profound influence on college life and learning. **When students walk into a classroom knowing that they can go through the motions and get a B+ or better, that’s what they tend to do, give minimal effort.** [Perhaps this is why the professor made the comment](http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/0324/p09s02-coop.html)? _My_ classes have higher grades because I don’t give them a choice. Other classes have higher grades because the teachers are lazy or the school demands them to inflate grades. If the _average_ grade is a 3.7, what does that say? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/56 "2011-06-07T15:16:27Z")
> [@YaraMateo](#): > > I can find many things I disagree with in this, but I have to say I THINK it’s easy to say grade don’t matter when you didn’t get As and weren’t the top of your class. I’d take that statement more seriously from a person who had a 4.0. Well here is the funny part. My first year of college I was in a smaller school doing general study pre-req courses and had all As with two A-s. I did about 30 credit hours my first year (I forgot exactly how many), but all As with a couple A-s. Then I transferred to a bigger school and changed my major to something harder and started getting a lot more Bs and Cs. At the first school I was competing with the best HS student in the county/city region doing general courses. At the second school I was competing with the best students in the state (I went to a flagship university) and did a fairly difficult major. Several of my classmates at the second school were valedictorians and salutatorians. So I have been an A student and top of my class. Had I stayed at the smaller school I would’ve graduated with a 3.9 or something. Like I said, it doesn’t matter. What matters it the people I was competing with for grades went up in quality when I transferred. Fundamentally it comes down to competition and who you are competing with, and what kinds of grades your professor feels comfortable giving. Some don’t like giving more than 20% of the class As, some give 60% of them As. Classmates at MIT will be better than those at community college. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/57 "2011-06-07T16:11:13Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > That’s not a “C”. That’s an “Incomplete”. A “C” would be if the quality of the painter’s work was neither better than most nor worse than most. This. It’s disturbing that someone in the business of imparting knowledge should be this bad at using an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/58 "2011-06-07T16:34:57Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > College should be for serious students. You can join a frat and make bad decisions, but you should also, oh, I don’t know, _do your fucking job._ When you take over the world and kick all the B-or-worse students out, grading will be kind of pointless. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/59 "2011-06-07T17:26:19Z")
> [@YaraMateo](#): > > I agree with the person who posted above me. If you can’t do better than a C (even if it’s just lack of trying) you shouldn’t be in college. Unless you’re talking about cumulative GPAs, that’s pretty much a C- statement right there- it’s about 2/3 or so correct. People have subjects they’re good in, and subjects that they’re not so good in. The mere fact of making a C in a particular course means nothing- the main reasons would be lack of preparation (long-term, prerequisites), lack of preparation (short-term, not studying), bad performance on the testing/homework events, and finally just not having a knack for that particular subject. I’d say that if you’re busting your hump and still making a C average, you should probably rethink your chosen field, but making a C in a given course doesn’t mean anything. I mean, I have a BS in Computer Science (top 50 program), a MBA (top 50 program) and a MS in IT & Mgmt. I made many Cs in the undergrad, and one in graduate school, even though I graduated with a B average in undergrad, and an A average in both master’s degrees. Think I shouldn’t have gone to college? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551/60 "2011-06-07T19:28:54Z")
In reality, in the U.S. college courses I taught and graded, a C meant “not\* totally\* clueless and/or illiterate.” “You can write a coherent sentence and appear to have listened and done the set reading at least some of the time,” got you a B. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-c-grade-analogy-from-professor/584551.md?page=4)