# College Campus Diversity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472 "2010-01-11T03:31:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/61 "2010-01-15T06:16:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > MLK fought for segregated water fountains? The other one is for little dogs. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/62 "2010-01-15T06:18:22Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Brain Glutton, > > “Data from more than 8000 parent-offspring pairs, 25,000 sibling pairs, 10,000 twin pairs and adoption studies provide evidence that genetic factors play a substantial role in the variation of general intelligence, with heritability estimates ranging from 40 to 80%” – > > Burdick et al, Cognitive variation in DTNBP1 influence general cognitive ability. Human Molecular Genetics, 2006, Vol 15, No. 10. > > “Multivariate genetic analyses indicate that general intelligence is highly heritable, and that the overlap in the cognitive processes is twice as great as the overall phenotypic overlap, with genetic correlations averaging around .80.” > > Plomin et al (2004) “A functional polymorphism in the succinate-semialdehyde dehydrogenase genes is associated with cognitive ability,” Molecular Psychology 9, 582-586. > > Actually, a tremendous amount of research has been conducted on its relevance to real world outcomes. For a nice summary, see Why g matters: the complexity of ordinary life by psychologist Linda Gottfredson. > > [http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatters.pdf](http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatters.pdf) > > Whatever it is measuring it appears to be something real in the brain that is reflected in different reaction time, greater processing efficiency (less glucose uptake), and different brain characteristics. > > See summary here. > > Neurobiology of Intelligence: Science and Ethics. Jeremy Gray1 and Paul Thompson2 [http://www.loni.ucla.edu/~thompson/IQ/NRN2004\_IQ.html](http://www.loni.ucla.edu/~thompson/IQ/NRN2004_IQ.html) > > Also, see twin study on heritability of myelination. > > [http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22333/](http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22333/) Tell me again why this is relevant? ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/63 "2010-01-15T12:07:40Z")
Strangely, almost all of the janitors and dishwashers at my Uni in Australia are Asian. They do the same jobs that black people did at the Uni’s I worked for in the US. We have tons of bad Asian students who cannot speak English and don’t know the first thing about going to college. As an aside-reading the Wall Street Journal for your higher education is really lazy. And this Griffe Lion stuff is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/64 "2010-01-18T05:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Tell me again why this is relevant? bannerrefugee, Someone above asked why average group differences have arisen. I set out one possible reason #55 above. Brain Glutton asked for a citation regarding the heritability of intelligence. > [@](#): > > Strangely, almost all of the janitors and dishwashers at my Uni in Australia are Asian. They do the same jobs that black people did at the Uni’s I worked for in the US. We have tons of bad Asian students who cannot speak English and don’t know the first thing about going to college. > > As an aside-reading the Wall Street Journal for your higher education is really lazy. And this Griffe Lion stuff is a joke. You’re using anecdotal evidence & then accusing me of being lazy! As for the ‘Griffe Lion stuff’, what do you disagree with? The data is pretty consistent. See the 2001 meta-analysis by Philip L Roth - “Ethnic Group Differences in Cognitive Ability in Employment and Educational Settings: A Meta-Analysis”. Roth & co looked at 105 different studies covering 6,246,729 individuals and found an overall average difference between whites and blacks of 16.5 IQ points, or 1.1 standard deviations. Otherwise see Gottfredson, Linda S. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law. Vol 6(1), Mar 2000, 129-143 > **[2000skillsgaps.pdf](https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2000skillsgaps.pdf)** > > 1172.59 KB ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/65 "2010-01-18T07:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Plomin et al (2004) “A functional polymorphism in the succinate-semialdehyde dehydrogenase genes is associated with cognitive ability,” Molecular Psychology 9, 582-586. Repeat after me, folks: Correlation is not causation. Complex human traits like intelligence are influenced by hundreds of genes in interaction with the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/66 "2010-01-18T07:09:35Z")
[http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2005/09/brain\_evolution.html](http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2005/09/brain_evolution.html) > [@](#): > > The truth about the way genes work is that other than in the case of simple mendelian traits of the kind which geneticists have had most success studying during the last century, it is almost unheard of in genetics research to discover single genes which are able to account for more than a minute fraction of variation in any given trait; furthermore, the very reason why so many traits in any given population happen to abide by a normal distribution is because to the extent said traits aren’t determined by environmental differences, they must be under the influence of very many genes, and the smoother the curve, the greater the number of underlying genes must be - this is nothing more than a generalization of the binomial theorem with which we are all familiar. In the case of the human brain, we know that about half of all genes - or some 15,000 of the total - are expressed in the brain during the course of development, and there is no a priori reason to believe that variations in any of them, or even in whatever regulatory regions might govern their behavior, will have no impact on how said organ functions. In light of all the foregoing, anybody who thinks we will find 20 or even 50 genes which rigorously account for, say, 90% of all “genetic” variation in “IQ” or whatever nebulous measure of intellect we decide upon is a fool at best. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/67 "2010-01-18T08:30:57Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Someone above asked why average group differences have arisen. I set out one possible reason #55 above. One more time Chen019 what do IQ scores have to do with addmissions policies at Unis? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/68 "2010-01-19T02:17:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Complex human traits like intelligence are influenced by hundreds of genes in interaction with the environment. I don’t see how you can get out of this unless you think that gene-environment interaction is _so strong_ that we can’t learn _anything_ (even statistical things) by just looking at the genetic information alone. This is a very strong and speculative assumption. > [@](#): > > One more time Chen019 what do IQ scores have to do with addmissions policies at Unis? Because people claim that there should be equal representation across groups. But clearly groups differ in average ability so there is no reason to expect this anymore than you would equal representation in the NBA. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/69 "2010-01-19T02:31:11Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It’s two parts ethnocentrism and one part threadshitting. It really 9 parts threadshitting… Like any true “race realist” all threads will lead to “Blecks iz dum;” therefore I must lead all threads to “Blecks iz dum.” The only goal behind this is to lead all available discussions to their “race theory.” It is nothing more complicated then that. Just dishonest, one-track, misleading, racist spam. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/70 "2010-01-19T02:47:30Z")
Orcenio, isn’t part of the problem that people can’t face reality? The idea that Jews are overrepresented in academia can’t be due to selection for high intelligence - it must be some conspiracy. Hence the need to press for more diversity to overcome the unfairness. Obviously, if the realists are right then a lot of the justification for these complaints go out the window. > [@](#): > > MIT must do a better job recruiting and retaining black and Hispanic faculty, who have a significantly more difficult time getting promoted than white and Asian colleagues, according to a frank internal study released today by the university. [http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking\_news/2010/01/mit\_lags\_in\_hir.html](http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/01/mit_lags_in_hir.html) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/71 "2010-01-19T03:12:42Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Orcenio, isn’t part of the problem that people can’t face reality? You hit the nail right on the head Mr. Hammer. > [@](#): > > The idea that Jews are overrepresented in academia can’t be due to selection for high intelligence **Assumption** does not follow **Observation** , Mr. Darwin. > [@](#): > > it must be some conspiracy Your conclusion seems to be fabricated too… > [@](#): > > Hence the need to press for more diversity to overcome the unfairness. “hence”?!? You’re onto full blown “wack job” territory now. > [@](#): > > Obviously, if the realists are right then a lot of the justification for these complaints go out the window. Who is it that is complaining of “Jewish over education”??? Nazis? > [@](#): > > [http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking\_news/2010/01/mit\_lags\_in\_hir.html](http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/01/mit_lags_in_hir.html) Nice story and hey, hey look at this quote > [@](#): > > Blacks and Hispanics make up only 6 percent of MIT faculty, an increase of 4.5 percent since 2000 but far below the university’s goal of achieving parity with the nation, where underrepresented minorities make up 30 percent of the population. Still under 30%, but they’re raising it. Awesome… keep at it MIT! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/72 "2010-01-19T04:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Who is it that is complaining of “Jewish over education”??? Nazis? I don’t know, perhaps the same people who are complaining that there are too many Asians & whites. The reason why you don’t get proportionality is set out by Linda Gottfredson #64 above. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/73 "2010-01-19T05:31:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I don’t know, perhaps the same people who are complaining that there are too many Asians & whites. The reason why you don’t get proportionality is set out by Linda Gottfredson #64 above. Wait a minute, now the complains are that there are too many Asians & whites and Jews? :dubious: Perhaps you mean that people complain that there are not enough Blacks/Hispanics? …lol, 😃 of course you don’t! ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/74 "2010-01-19T08:22:19Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Because people claim that there should be equal representation across groups. But clearly groups differ in average ability so there is no reason to expect this anymore than you would equal representation in the NBA. I don’t know anyone in higher ed that has such a silly naïve concept of appropriate measure to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of education. I am sure if you look hard enough you can find one though ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/75 "2010-01-19T12:03:18Z")
The dilemma that universities have is that gaps between racial groups are large–they are not “just a few SAT points” and they are not ameliorated by selecting for equal opportunity. As an example, black children attending my wealthy suburban school are not proportionately represented in the top academic tier. As an example, black children from families who earn over $100,000/yr score less well than white children from families earning $10,000/yr. As another example, black students taking identical pre-med college curricula underscore white and asian students on MCAT and LSAT exams by a wide margin even after having the same college schooling. As another example, universities with rigorous quantifiable programs in the STEM disciplines (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) have never been able to get black students through their PhD programs in any sort of representative numbers. The debate over “why” has been beaten up elsewhere, but the bottom line is that without special programs which deliberately target and set aside racial quotas, there is no way to get racial diversity. Equal opportunity alone does not create equal outcomes. If we are to create a society where the representation of people in skilled professions represents the the racial diversity of society as a whole, we will have to set aside race-based quotas and simply accept that those filling those quotas are less “qualified” academically. Specific data about how this works out in practice are very difficult to come by because higher institutions have no interest in exposing their recruitment process and race-based preferences. Data on actual race-based performance are widely available for those interested in pursuing the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/76 "2010-01-20T00:37:49Z")
> [@Chief Pedant](#): > > Equal opportunity alone does not create equal outcomes. Well, the only way to determine that with certainty is to actually **have** equal opportunity. We’re a long way away from that yet. > [@Chief Pedant](#): > > If we are to create a society where the representation of people in skilled professions represents the the racial diversity of society as a whole, we will have to set aside race-based quotas and simply accept that those filling those quotas are less “qualified” academically. Maybe, maybe not. Extrapolating from the current state of society, which has a lot of race-linked outcome differentials and also a lot of institutionalized racism, to arbitrary generalizations about what **must** be **intrinsically** true about race and society even in the absence of racial prejudice, is not very persuasive. > [@Chief Pedant](#): > > Specific data about how this works out in practice are very difficult to come by because higher institutions have no interest in exposing their recruitment process and race-based preferences. This sounds like classic paranoid-conspiracy-theory thinking: "they’re keeping the truth a deep dark secret because _THEY DON’T WANT YOU TO KNOW!!!_ :eek: ". In reality, higher ed institutions never stop talking about their recruitment processes and how they establish and achieve specific goals for diversity and minority recruitment. Details of recruitment and admissions policies are constantly being hashed out in court cases and in education research publications. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/77 "2010-01-20T01:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Chief Pedant > Equal opportunity alone does not create equal outcomes. > > Well, the only way to determine that with certainty is to actually have equal opportunity. You mean socialism? Note the outcomes of children from high SES families. These support CP’s argument that equal opportunity does not create equal outcomes. > **[File:1995-SAT-Income2.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income2.png)** > > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. > The following other wikis use this file: > **[File:1995-SAT-Education2.png](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Education2.png)** > > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. > The following other wikis use this file: ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/78 "2010-01-20T01:56:58Z")
Never mind. Either you just edited out the point I wanted to argue or I’m freaking out again. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/79 "2010-01-20T02:02:24Z")
Well, I did initially post wondering what evidence Kimstu had of all this institutional racism. Then edited it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472/80 "2010-01-20T02:20:12Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Evidence of this institutionalised racism? Sure. To clarify terms: by “institutionalized”, I’m not talking about racism being still officially enshrined in US law. I’m talking about persistent racist views that are still influential in our society and its institutions. There are numerous studies that clearly show the persistence of racial discrimination in the US. A few samples of articles describing them: [Racial discrimination continues to play a part in hiring decisions](http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_09172003/) [Racial Discrimination in Housing: A Moving Target](http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/pdf/10.1525/sp.2005.52.2.148?cookieSet=1) [Racism in NYC Restaurant Hiring: Matched Study](http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2009/04/01/racism-in-nyc-restaurant-hiring/) > [@Chen019](#): > > You mean socialism? No, I would hate to think that socialism was the only option for achieving a racially egalitarian society (although I have to admit that the Communists were much quicker to espouse racial equality than we were). I’d like to think that a mixed economic structure of more or less the sort we have now could be successful in moving us all the way from legalized race-based chattel slavery to true racial equality. Maybe we’ll get there someday. > [@Chen019](#): > > Note the outcomes of children from high SES families. These support CP’s argument that equal opportunity does not create equal outcomes. That inference requires believing that the existence of some minority families with high socioeconomic status equates to truly equal opportunity in society and culture. That’s too much of a leap of faith for me. Mind you, I’m not declaring that there **can’t** possibly be significant race-linked outcome differentials in a society with truly equal opportunity. I’m just pointing out that so far, we don’t have the experimental conditions that would allow us to test that hypothesis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-campus-diversity/524472.md?page=5)