# College costs, loans and value **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 7, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759 "2014-02-07T15:45:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/41 "2014-02-08T00:35:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But maybe if I had gone to Cornell or another big namebrand, I would be rolling in dough. Maybe instead of being “pretty okay”, I’d be living the best life evah!!! Maybe, maybe not. I went to Cornell and love my life, but it wasn’t for everyone. For each of us that loved Ithaca and didn’t mind freezing our butts off (:D) there were those who complained about being in the middle of nowhere and didn’t think the place was “all that.” Cornell also suited my fiercely competitive nature. The level of competitiveness was something some of my classmates hated. I loved it. Am I living the best life evah! ? Probably not, but I love my life and Cornell played a big role in who I am today and my outlook on life. To answer your poll about who picked their program based on ROI - not me. I wanted to study literature, knowing there were few, if any, direct links to a job or career outside teaching/academia, neither of which I was interested in. I chose it because I loved it. I did, however, choose my grad school based partly on ROI - whether it would lead directly to a good career. And it did. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/42 "2014-02-08T14:47:46Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Probably 90% of my kids have not spent a an hour total talking to _anyone_-certainly not to a guidance counselor–one on one about their choice of major. It just doesn’t happen. When they are 10 or 12 or 14 or 16 they latch onto some major based on random advice from someone, or because they admire someone in particular, or because it’s related to their favorite subject in school or, yes, because someone told them they’d make a lot of money that way. But it’s not an informed choice. It’s so poorly informed that it almost cancels itself out. > > I don’t doubt that there are tons of kids getting the message that choosing a college and a major is all about trying to enter a financial market and make the right investment. And I agree that it’s appalling. But I disagree that that’s an overwhelming paradigm; tons are simply not savvy enough to even understand these implications. And there are not an insignificant minority who are even advanced enough to look at the question “what do I want to do with my life?” with meaningful sophistication. This is certainly a sharp reflection of the process for my kids. My daughter, having been a B and C student through the first two and a half years of highschool suddenly realized (a little too late) that marks matter for college entry. Not like it wasn’t a matter of frequent discussion throughout the years. It just suddenly dawned on her. Then panic set in. At the end of her junior year, perhaps even the summer before her senior year, she decided on nursing as her career choice. Completely out of the blue. Still have no idea what the reasoning was behind that decision. But she seems happy with the choice and I think it’s a good career path for her. My son is a junior. Same lackadaisical approach to his studies. A little worse actually - it’s a whole other worry. Same conversations about the importance of marks and discussions about possible career choices based on areas of interest, etc. He’s been present through all these discussions when we were going through them with his sister, but not much has sunk in. He throws out ideas like Coast Guard, or Naval Academy, or mechanical engineering. So I make it a habit of taking him to the appropriate on line resource and showing him the requirements he needs to meet to get into one or the other. I think I’m doing him a favour in showing him the importance of marks and choices, but in reality I often feel like I’m just showing him that these are dreams beyond what he thinks he is capable of achieving. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/43 "2014-02-08T15:15:54Z")
I agree that most teenagers and even young adults have only a passing understanding of how education, career and future lifestyle relate. I know that my high school had one counselor per 500 students, and they were mostly focused on the struggling kids. The only careers I saw in depth were my family’s, which weren’t really relevant to my trajectory. So the whole concept was pretty vague. I remember my mom trying to talk to me about career, and it made no sense because I had no reference. I didn’t really get it until I made friends with a lot of ambitious east coast types who seem to have been career savvy since high school. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/44 "2014-02-08T15:32:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I agree that most teenagers and even young adults have only a passing understanding of how education, career and future lifestyle relate. I know that my high school had one counselor per 500 students, and they were mostly focused on the struggling kids. The only careers I saw in depth were my family’s, which weren’t really relevant to my trajectory. So the whole concept was pretty vague. I remember my mom trying to talk to me about career, and it made no sense because I had no reference. > > I didn’t really get it until I made friends with a lot of ambitious east coast types who seem to have been career savvy since high school. Part of that has to do with how we present the world to teens. Their “work life” is by academic subject - so they see the world through that lens. I’m good at English. I love History. I hate Math. I like Science, but I don’t like the Math part… English is not a job. Even History isn’t a job - no one memorizes and spouts out History for a living. You teach. You research. You write. Or maybe you administer. Most jobs have very little relationship to school subjects - Money (Finance, Accounting) is a HUGE career field - which kids get almost no exposure to. Maybe some budgeting, and maybe Econ as Seniors - but Econ is the academic side - not the practical side. IT is immense - but you don’t get a chance to discover if you are a good coder until high school - unless you are lucky enough to fall into it as a hobby. And that’s the coding end - who talks about IT operations, about project managers and business analysts and DBAs. Who leaves high school wanting to be a Sourcing Specialist - putting together RFQ and RFIs, analyzing the results, negotiating contracts, managing the vendor relationship over the term of the contract. Kids only know about the jobs they SEE - they know that there are policemen and doctors and vets and teachers - and they might know what their parents do. They have some idea there are the careers presented in their books - but I’m homeschooling my son right now - and textbook authors don’t help with a students perception of the job market - “you could be a geographer or an environmental biologist” - the same sort of “look at jobs through an academic lens.” ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/45 "2014-02-08T15:52:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think I’m doing him a favour in showing him the importance of marks and choices, but in reality I often feel like I’m just showing him that these are dreams beyond what he thinks he is capable of achieving. :smack: We’ve been successful - and have been fortunate to have kids perceptive enough to understand this - in emphasizing the dichotomy between the “importance” of grades and their purpose in advancing in life. We don’t pretend that an A in 2nd year world history is an inherently meaningful and valuable thing - most kids know better. But we do emphasize that grades are how the world is going to judge them at 18, even if they go straight into the workforce. They can take the position that grades are meaningless, slack through high school, and start on the lowest possible rung of adult life (well, failing to graduate is lower), or they can use the same time to achieve high grades, get to adulthood at the same time, and be many steps up the starting ladder. But trying to sell kids on the idea that grades are Really Really Important in themselves is only going to work with the dullest ones - the rest know it’s a shuck. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/46 "2014-03-25T16:30:22Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Education is not the only thing needed to land a job after graduation. Contacts arguably mean more than academic performance. Interviewers only care about your GPA for your first job out of college. The rest will be landed on the strength of your network and/or charisma. Oh no - I’m totally screwed . . . ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/47 "2014-03-25T19:50:12Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Most jobs have very little relationship to school subjects - Money (Finance, Accounting) is a HUGE career field - which kids get almost no exposure to. Maybe some budgeting, and maybe Econ as Seniors - but Econ is the academic side - not the practical side. IT is immense - but you don’t get a chance to discover if you are a good coder until high school - unless you are lucky enough to fall into it as a hobby. And that’s the coding end - who talks about IT operations, about project managers and business analysts and DBAs. Who leaves high school wanting to be a Sourcing Specialist - putting together RFQ and RFIs, analyzing the results, negotiating contracts, managing the vendor relationship over the term of the contract. > > Kids only know about the jobs they SEE - they know that there are policemen and doctors and vets and teachers - and they might know what their parents do. They have some idea there are the careers presented in their books - but I’m homeschooling my son right now - and textbook authors don’t help with a students perception of the job market - “you could be a geographer or an environmental biologist” - the same sort of “look at jobs through an academic lens.” BINGO! As others have said, how many high school kids even know what jobs exist in the world, beyond what I can the “Sesame Street” jobs - Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, Nurse, Cop, Fireman, etc? Until you get into college you don’t even know there is such a thing as a Municipal Landscape Architect, or even a Database Infrastructure Analyst, or Regional Pharmaceutical Sales Manager? So how can expect the average 16 year old to make an informed decision on their future direction? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/48 "2014-03-25T20:01:56Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > And there’s little room to argue that the connections you acquire from Harvard or Stanford will be incalculably more valuable than those from Texas A&M or UMich. Exceptions, always exceptions, yes. There is room to argue and I will. 😉 Depending on what you want to do those UMich connections may be more valuable. If you are looking to be a U.S Senator some day, or get a job with a top 1% New York legal firm, then yes Ivy league connections are much more likely to be helpful. But if you want to get a job with a legal Firm in Michigan, then UMich connections will open many more doors than the others, because there is probably a grad or 2 in every one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/49 "2014-03-26T06:11:19Z")
The top state schools are really valuable in the state, because lots of people you meet will be alums. Good state schools, like Michigan, will open lots of doors. But the small exclusive schools like Harvard and MIT are even better from networking and the halo effect. I went to my 40th reunion, and the 10 and 5 year classes donated a total of about $70 million. And the donation rates were very high for most of the classes. That’s a good indicator that MIT grads both have money and think the place was worth it. ---
**Author:** ![bytheway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@bytheway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bytheway)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/50 "2014-03-27T04:19:53Z")
[Slate article](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/03/26/payscale_college_salary_survey_what_school_will_make_you_poorest.html) This article in Slate lists the colleges with the lowest ROI, per [Payscale.com](http://Payscale.com). ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/51 "2014-03-28T17:10:52Z")
I picked my college because they were the only one to offer me a scholarship by national signing day and they would let me do football and track. When I was little my Dad told me he didn’t care what I majored in as long as it was since or math related so I chose a college that didn’t even offer English or literature as classes. I had no concept of what major I was going to do only I would never have to write an essay again. I was on spring break, my freshman year, and had been told by the football coaches I had to pick a major by the time I returned. I was drunk and complaining to my friends and they told me that being a petroleum engineer would make me rich. So I picked petroleum engineering, by far the best drunk decision of my life. All of that was to say I agree that I agree that high schoolers don’t think about ROI when picking schools but by getting lucky and picking the highest ROI major at one of the highest ROI schools I’ve been successful. The real trick is figuring out how to let economics work properly in career selection by paying the outrageous salaries to petroleum engineers (starting salary is $103,000) there should be gluts of people getting into the major and driving down salaries. While attendance has increased 5 fold at my school there is still a huge need for young engineers. So in my mind the question is why. Part of it is lack of education, I’d never heard of my college let along my major when I was in high school. I think the rest is the societal drive to be happy, my school is a terrible place with high dropout rates, high incidence of alcoholism and high suicide rates but if you make it through you do very well, not many people would encourage their kids to sign up for that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/52 "2014-03-29T20:47:25Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > [Here](http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2013/full-list-of-schools) is a list of colleges by starting salary and also providing mid-career salary. Graduates of the US Military Academy and the US Naval Academy have the highest starting salaries, but graduates of Princeton University have the highest mid-career salary. In general, the schools on top of the list are the “nerd schools”; MIT, Caltech, Lehigh, etc. Basically, the STEM programs are the way to go for higher incomes, more so than the softer subjects. [Lehigh hardly a “nerd school”. It’s actually a really big party school. It also happens to be worth the money by most accounts.](http://www.businessinsider.com/party-schools-worth-the-money-best-return-on-investment-2014-3) Another thing to consider is that a lot of students who go to the Ivy League, military academies, MIT, Stanford and other elite colleges already have a pretty good sense of what they want to do career-wise when they apply. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/53 "2014-03-29T22:01:12Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I disagree. I teach high school juniors. I talk to kids about majors all the time. While I would agree that future earnings play a significant role in their thinking, all of them take other things into account as well: their own aptitudes and interests, their cultural/social expectations, and ideas about status also play significant roles. > > Now, they aren’t particularly good at reflecting/weighing/considering all those things, because they suffer from being stupid. But they aren’t simply looking at future paychecks. Honest to god, tons of them haven’t really figured out yet that they are going to have to make a living one day soon, and that the quality of that living can vary widely. Instead, they tend to vaguely assume that “normal” will continue forever, whatever their own normal is. > > It’s hard to convey how small these kids’ worlds are. I honestly believe the average high school senior could not list 25 distinctly different jobs that require a degree, and they have no sense how those jobs pay relative to each others. People that need to change careers have the same problem. It would be nice if there were someone there saying, “If you choose option A, you will make this much and retire at this age, and will be happy; if you choose option B, you will not be happy, but you will retire earlier, probably.” But many people can testify that their degree of satisfaction was entirely unexpected. What we need more of is good parenting and guidance from adults and this can be helped by allowing people like yourself to do your job without fear of being fired or sued. Unfortunately, there are a lot of kids in this world that, for good reason, don’t trust anyone, and they need people that set a good example to care about them. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/54 "2014-03-29T23:27:27Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > People that need to change careers have the same problem. It would be nice if there were someone there saying, “If you choose option A, you will make this much and retire at this age, and will be happy; if you choose option B, you will not be happy, but you will retire earlier, probably.” But many people can testify that their degree of satisfaction was entirely unexpected. > > What we need more of is good parenting and guidance from adults and this can be helped by allowing people like yourself to do your job without fear of being fired or sued. Unfortunately, there are a lot of kids in this world that, for good reason, don’t trust anyone, and they need people that set a good example to care about them. What sort of guidance would you expect someone to give? ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/55 "2014-03-30T00:50:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What sort of guidance would you expect someone to give? What do you mean, “what sort”? _Career_ guidance. Young people and others that don’t know about potential careers to transition to are best helped not by looking it up on the internet, but by talking to someone who knows a lot about these things. Parents, for example, don’t necessarily know a lot about different careers, but at least they can field crazy stuff that their kid doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of hell of achieving. Guidance counselors and other professionals whose job it is to know these things can provide real options for people as to what they can transition to. But, of course, there will always be that parent who thinks her kid should follow his heart wherever that may lead. A career counselor at school should not have to comply with this foolishness, really, but I get the idea that if the parent was to contact the school board or other authority, the counselor’s job would be at risk. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/56 "2014-03-30T03:00:45Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > What do you mean, “what sort”? _Career_ guidance. Yes, I get that. What sort of “career” guidance? No one is going to pick your career for you. And I seriously doubt that a high school guidance counselor in a typical small suburban town can give meaningful career advice beyond the broad “college / trade school / military” advice they’ve always given. How do they know what a child can or can’t achieve? Particularly the smart and talented kids. If I listened to my idiot guidance counsellors, I would have been getting a useless architecture degree from Quinnipiac Community College. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/57 "2014-03-30T03:42:54Z")
> [@](#): > > How do they know what a child can or can’t achieve? Particularly the smart and talented kids. They should know about their grades, and about their parents backgrounds to some extent. That’s at least something beyond my a “my precious snowflake” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/58 "2014-03-30T14:37:31Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > They should know about their grades, and about their parents backgrounds to some extent. That’s at least something beyond my a “my precious snowflake” attitude. This all sounds a bit “strawman” to me. Fact is, I’m sure most guidance counsellors do have a pretty good sense of what schools a child can realistically get accepted at based on their grades and they should have a good sense of what financial aid is available. Even if they don’t, the application process should sort that out pretty quickly. I guess maybe I’m not sure what “problem” you are trying to solve here? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/59 "2014-03-30T15:15:16Z")
Many of us here have been told by educational professionals that we’ll never amount to anything, only to later prove them wrong. And heaven forbid if there’s a class, cultural, and/or racial barrier. Educational professionals can be just as biased as anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759/60 "2014-03-30T16:12:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > This all sounds a bit “strawman” to me. > > Fact is, I’m sure most guidance counsellors do have a pretty good sense of what schools a child can realistically get accepted at based on their grades and they should have a good sense of what financial aid is available. Even if they don’t, the application process should sort that out pretty quickly. > > I guess maybe I’m not sure what “problem” you are trying to solve here? Are you sure you are not just using the term ‘strawman’ to discredit my post, without my propping up a strawman? “Problem”? If you go back and look at my original reply, you would see that I’m commenting on the problem of youths and career changers and proper guidance. Do you understand now, or are we going to go back and forth with you attempting to discredit my posts without you having any idea of what I am talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-costs-loans-and-value/680759.md?page=4)