# College football if O'Bannon wins the lawsuit **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799 "2013-08-09T12:41:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/221 "2014-06-10T21:09:54Z")
The schools are desperately trying to keep this particular trial focused on players’ likenesses and television revenues, saving the bigger antitrust battles with Jeffrey Kessler for later. One of their classic (well, classically comedic) arguments is the one where they say that the networks are only giving them money for access to the stadium, not for the games or the players. And, continuing with the schools’ argument, without the stadium the games and players have no value. Pardon me if I’m repeating myself but Patrick Hruby of Sports on Earth was amused by this argument some months ago. > [@](#): > > At the certification hearing, lawyer Gregory Curtner also argued that the association isn’t profiting off college athletes via television broadcast contracts, because it isn’t selling their names, images and likenesses. Nuh-uh. Instead, the NCAA is simply peddling access to its facilities. Read that again. By Curtner’s logic, networks like ESPN and CBS aren’t forking over billions of dollars for the exclusive rights to show athletes performing, but rather for the exclusive opportunity to lug cameras and satellite transmission equipment into arenas and stadiums during scheduled game times. As my Sports on Earth colleague Gwen Knapp argues, this is completely ludicrous --\*\* like asserting that ESPN’s College Gameday crew is simply shooting Saturday afternoon footage of the turf at Michigan Stadium, and if a bunch of football players “keep wandering into the screen, well, what are you gonna do?\*\*” – and when Curtner made his case, he seemed to prompt a chuckle from federal judge Claudia Wilken. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/222 "2014-06-19T12:48:59Z")
Trial is now a week and a half in and Mark Emmert will be on the stand for the defense today. Things haven’t gone well for the schools so far, according to most observers, who haven’t really explained to non-sports fan Judge Claudia Wilken how athletes making money damages anyone. The schools, laughably, have argued that athletes making money most hurts _athletes_. Still, I don’t have a feel for the verdict. Wilken might slap an immediate injunction on the schools’ rules agreements on amateurism, throwing it open for the players to sell autographs and jersies (and strike deals with companies like EA, whose VP testified yesterday that EA had been pestering the NCAA for years to allow them to use personalized likenesses in their games because that’s what consumers wanted) and even to assign a percentage of TV money to the athletes. Or she could uphold the status quo. I think it will be somewhere in between. Even with a resounding victory for the plaintiffs, however, this is just the opening salvo as Andy Staples notes for [SI.com](http://SI.com) today. [Jeffrey Kessler is coming to blow things totally up](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140618/obannon-vs-ncaa-jenkins-mark-emmert-claudia-wilken/). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/223 "2014-07-25T14:33:23Z")
I found [this op/ed piece on Forbes.com this morning](http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2014/07/21/right-or-wrong-precedent-will-decide-obannon-case-in-favor-of-ncaa/). > [@](#): > > While theoretical questions about amateurism may be difficult to answer, the most important legal questions were settled in a 1984 case between the NCAA and the University of Oklahoma. In that case the Supreme Court set out some principles that should guarantee victory for the NCAA in the O’Bannon lawsuit, if not at trial then on appeal. > > The precedent could not be clearer. Identifying the “product” of college sports as athletics associated with an academic tradition, the Supreme Court unequivocally stated that “in order to preserve the character and quality of the ‘product,’ athletes must not be paid, must be required to attend class, and the like.” Although in 1984 the more than 1,200 NCAA schools were generating millions rather than billions, the point remains valid. Indeed, the Supreme Court in 1984 recognized that the “NCAA and its member institutions are in fact organized to maximize revenues.” Frankly, I don’t think this decision applies at all to the issues under consideration in O’Bannon (or Kessler, actually), but Mr. Katz feels differently. > [@](#): > > That profit motive, however, does not compel payment of student-athletes. The reverse is true, because paying student-athletes would eliminate the academic tradition that, according to the 1984 Supreme Court, “differentiates college football from and makes it more popular than professional sports to which it might otherwise be comparable, such as, for example, minor league baseball.” > > Whether one agrees with this reasoning, it is a judicial precedent on which the entire edifice of college sports—both revenue-generating and non-revenue-generating sports—has been built in the last three decades. To destroy that edifice would benefit no one except the less than one percent of college athletes who are skilled enough to play professionally. I think he’s way off base; anyone else have an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/224 "2014-07-25T15:09:29Z")
I agree that he’s off base. Frankly, the “character and quality” of the product the NCAA wishes to sell is of zero interest to me. The “tradition” that differentiates college football from minor league baseball is also of zero interest to me. If your “product” depends on taking advantage of desperate young men, getting them to do highly valuable work in return for no cash payment and high restrictions on their abilities to earn outside money, then the quality of your product, the tradition of your product is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/225 "2014-07-25T15:14:26Z")
I have an opinion, naturally. The quote from the 1984 case was not a ruling because the issues of likenesses and player income _were’t being argued at the time._ It was essentially a throwaway line and the NCAA defenders are ridiculous in their arguments that some sort of precedent was set. Judge Wilken has already disposed of this matter when the NCAA first brought it up in the O’Bannon trial. I was pretty shocked that someone with lengthy experience in law would even try to make this argument – Forbes has published several opinion pieces favoring the plaintiffs so maybe they were just trying to offer an alternative point of view – but perhaps someone with a legal background can come in here and show us how the '84 case applies in any way. In fact, I don’t think even the schools believe their own bullshit any more. The big conferences are clearly moving in a direction that indicates their belief that the outside income cat will be out of the bag sooner or later. They are mistaken, however, if they think a $2,000 stipend is gonna cut it when Adidas waves a million bucks at the next Johnny Manziel. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/226 "2014-07-25T15:44:45Z")
Well, it’s certainly true that existing law greatly favors the NCAA here, but if the NCAA wins it _won’t_ be because of NCAA v. Board of Regents. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/227 "2014-07-25T15:58:17Z")
Bo: I completely agree with the '84.decision. College is about education, and sports is an extracurricular activity, though obviously high profile. I believe it behooves athletes to not waste the school’s, and their, time with farcical education. If they want tonplay sports, turn pro. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/228 "2014-07-25T16:04:02Z")
You make it sound as though the colleges are helpless bystanders watching their campuses get eaten by football practice fields and stadia. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/229 "2014-07-25T16:53:47Z")
I agree they create them, in much the same way the create Chess and Glee clubs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/230 "2014-07-25T17:00:08Z")
Pretty sure nobody on the glee club has ever been ordered to drop a math class because it will interfere with film study sessions. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/231 "2014-07-25T17:10:22Z")
RNATB: That speaks to the priorities of the players. If they truly cared about their education, and let’s face it, the ones who do caucus in a phone booth, they’d prioritize that math class, and their degree, over the infinitesimal chance of a pro career. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/232 "2014-07-25T17:23:14Z")
I fail to see (and I imagine the players do also) how losing their scholarships is consistent with “truly caring about their educations”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/233 "2014-07-25T17:33:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I fail to see (and I imagine the players do also) how losing their scholarships is consistent with “truly caring about their educations”. You fail to see it because it isn’t there. The schools will not allow the students to prioritize their educations. They will be kicked out of the school if they do so. etv78, your posts are profoundly ignorant on this subject. You have absolutely zero grasp of the issues many of these athletes are facing. They are in the colleges solely for their athletic skills and must prioritize those skills or they will no longer be in the colleges. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/234 "2014-07-25T17:36:45Z")
A revised NCAA video-game proposed settlement filed Wednesday has removed a $5,000-a-year cap for current and former college football and men’s basketball players who appeared in the games. [http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24634858/proposed-ncaa-video-game-settlement-could-pay-players-more](http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24634858/proposed-ncaa-video-game-settlement-could-pay-players-more) ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/235 "2014-07-25T18:16:44Z")
Goddess: So are you seriously saying players don’t need to stay academically eligible? You’re right though, I don’t relate to potential pro athletes. Seems I value education more than most college football and male basketball players, not to mention the posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/236 "2014-07-25T18:57:31Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Goddess: So are you seriously saying players don’t need to stay academically eligible? You’re right though, I don’t relate to potential pro athletes. Seems I value education more than most college football and male basketball players, not to mention the posters in this thread. They need to stay academically eligible. They can’t skip practice to do so. They can’t put academics ahead of their sport or they will have no academics to worry about. I think many of the people in this thread are more educated than you are, so claiming you value education more is a bit off. And potential pro athletes are human beings who are usually working really really hard and have worked very hard before now to get where they are. I’ve met many kids who are “potential pro athletes” and tutored dozens. The ones I met were nice kids, most of them tried very hard, and most were under a ton of pressure to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/237 "2014-07-25T20:05:33Z")
Goddess: Was the pressure to do well in their sport and get to the pros, so they could get Mom out of the 'hood? Or do they truly take school seriously? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/238 "2014-07-25T20:07:37Z")
Are the kids you tutor working hard to get to the pros, and get Mom out of the 'hood, or are they truly working on school? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/239 "2014-07-25T20:11:40Z")
Good god. Have you read anything in this thread? Your idea of “taking education seriously” is completely simplistic and blinkered. And what is this “mama out of the good” bullshit? Can for a minute not think in stereotypes and try to look at people as human beings who are using the options and skills available to them to try to succeed? College athletes are at the mercy of a system that the colleges have created. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799/240 "2014-07-25T20:13:54Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Are the kids you tutor working hard to get to the pros, and get Mom out of the 'hood, or are they truly working on school? First, it’s offensive to me that you are talking about them getting their Mom out of the hood. Second, the colleges have decided to give kids scholarships to go to the college and play the sport the college wants them to play. If they don’t play the sport the college wants them to play, they lose the scholarship. Do you acknowledge this? I was going to go on to a third point, but I want your acknowledgement of both of these issues first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-football-if-obannon-wins-the-lawsuit/665799.md?page=13)