# College Is Not For Everyone **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801 "2010-09-23T19:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/61 "2010-09-24T18:02:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Oh the poor! Isn’t it silly how they struggle to climb into the halls of privilege? How they waste their so much time and energy pretending like they are worthy of the same things we have? Really, picturing them in the classroom is terribly amusing, isn’t it? I mean, one or two here and there keeps things a little colorful, but now all of them think they belong in the classroom and it’s all gone too far. > > When will they realize how much happier and more fulfilling their lives will be when they accept their real place in life is fixing my toilet? Who says being a gardener can’t be fulfilling? I have just the greatest gardener, and Jose is always smiling. Really, sometimes I envy their simple lives. I hope Jose’s cute kids can realize that and stick to what they do best. > > Anyway, I just don’t know why they think a college education is the best way succeed in life. Some people just don’t know what is good for them. Really, someone ought to be watching out for them a bit better. They get a silly idea in their head like going to college, and it’s so hard t make them realize why college just isn’t for them. > > Oh, can you hold on a minute? I’ve got to call my kid’s SAT tutor… I understand the concept of going to college to have opportunities your parents may not have had. I don’t understand the mentality of going deep into debt to go to college to get ahead and then majoring in comparative 14th Egyptian century literature or something like that. Get an engineering degree or dual major in philosophy and economics or somethign that will make you more qualified for a job than the high school grad who has 4 years of real world experience under his belt. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/62 "2010-09-24T18:05:14Z")
Just be careful if your kid starts out as a promising engineering student and falls under the sway of a charismatic yet unconventional poetry teacher played by Robin Williams. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/63 "2010-09-24T18:10:28Z")
> [@furt](#): > > And why you’d limit it to males, I have no idea – in 2010, the clear majority of college students are women. I’m not sure why I wrote “males”. I meant to say 25 - 30 % of all adults. Just googling some stats came up with about 70% of high school students go on to college. So 80% for a school is pretty good. > [@](#): > > John Mace ] > We really need to break free from the paradigm that education and work are two separate things. We should start integrating the two as early as possible. I would agree. There seems to be this entire group of people who seem to feel they should just use their education opportunities to dabble around in whatever interests them and that they should just be handed a lucrative job doing something when they come out the other side. It’s like they never make that connection that “hey! I need to get good at something so someone will actually pay me to do it for a living!” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/64 "2010-09-24T18:22:32Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > But do any of those studies compare college educations with _skilled_ trades? Not my gardener, my plumber. My plumber would make a _hell_ of a lot more money than I do if he didn’t have three ex-wives. So this lawyer’s toilet stops working and he calls a plumber who takes half an hour to fix the toilet and presents a bill for $250. The lawyer says, there must be some sort of mistake" The plumber says “no mistake, I charge $500/hour” The lawyer says “WHAT!?!?! I’m a lawyer and I only charge $300/hour!!!” The plumber sympathizes “Yeah I could only charge about $300 when i was a lawyer as well” In NYC, plumbers frequently make more than white collar workers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/65 "2010-09-24T18:33:10Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I find myself wishing there were more encouragement for unmotivated HS graduates to defer their college by a few years. I’m almost always pleased with the attitude my older (25 y.o.+)students have towards doing what my college courses require (on the most basic level: showing up on time, not bringing a live cell phone and a three course meal into class, handing in papers when the syllabus says they’re due, etc.) The percentage of my time and energy taken up by babysitting my 18-22 y.o. students is beyond belief. > > A few years earning money and seeing the kinds of jobs that college grads get provides the maturity and motivation needed to take college a little bit seriously. I gotta agree with you here. If my kid wanted to take a few years off betweenn high school and college, I’d be OK with it. heck I might even encourage a few eyaras of ditch diging so he appreciates how important college is. I got out of college during the Bush Sr. recession and I had screwed around during college and jumped around from one dead end job to another before I went to law school and by the time I got to law school I appreciated it a lot more than I wold have if i went straight through. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/66 "2010-09-24T18:36:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 80% of new jobs in this country require higher education. That depends on what is meant by “require.” Does the inherent nature of the work demand it, or are employers asking for that because they know there are so many college grads that end up looking for $12/hour jobs anyway. I have seen Customer Service Rep jobs that said they wanted someone with a bachelor’s. They were being choosy because they could; if college enrollment was lower (and unemployment went down), I suspect they’d find a CSR job doesn’t actually need someone with a four-year degree. To pick a skilled trade that became professionalized: time was that most newspaper reporters were HS graduates. Now, it’s almost impossible to get into without a degree. In what way has this been a positive development for anyone? (And if you say that journalists nowadays write better, I’m gonna laugh myself silly.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/67 "2010-09-24T18:41:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just be careful if your kid starts out as a promising engineering student and falls under the sway of a charismatic yet unconventional poetry teacher played by Robin Williams. If my kid is really good at something or has a passion about ANYTHING, I’d consider myself lucky even if it was post classical Nigerian art but I don’t think this sort of passion is very common. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/68 "2010-09-24T18:48:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The NCPA didn’t write the report. The College Board did, and they get tons of money if more kids go to college, with zero stake in whether or not those kids graduate and/or succeed. The Educational Testing Service was down the street from where I used to work, and my old landlady was a PhD psychologist doing research there. They do substantial amounts of research - if you are accusing them of dishonesty you should give some evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/69 "2010-09-24T18:53:49Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > > [@furt](#): > > > > Actually, a lot of chefs would say to ditch culinary school … > > And few successful film makers have actually gone to film school. (Spielberg is a notable exception.) Spike Lee did too. My wife saw his NYU student film, and it was awesome. You might also have heard of this guy called George Lucas … ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/70 "2010-09-24T19:02:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@furt](#): > > > > The NCPA didn’t write the report. The College Board did, and they get tons of money if more kids go to college, with zero stake in whether or not those kids graduate and/or succeed. > > The Educational Testing Service was down the street from where I used to work, and my old landlady was a PhD psychologist doing research there. They do substantial amounts of research - if you are accusing them of dishonesty you should give some evidence. :rolleyes: They are biased (as is everyone), and they have a vested interest (which tends to influence everyone, no matter how pure). That doesn’t mean they’re deliberately lying. It means I’ll take their report about the way as I would a report from the National Dairy Council saying I need to drink more milk. And no offense to your landlord, but I personally know several PhDs that despise ETS and think they’re awful. That doesn’t prove anything, either. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/71 "2010-09-24T19:22:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Spike Lee did too. My wife saw his NYU student film, and it was awesome. You might also have heard of this guy called George Lucas … Of course, and there are others. They still make up such a small percentage of the total. Film school teaches you how to take two years to make a 20-minute film. Executive producers want someone who can make a two-hour film in two weeks–under budget. It’s about hustling more than taking classes. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/72 "2010-09-24T19:32:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I understand the concept of going to college to have opportunities your parents may not have had. I don’t understand the mentality of going deep into debt to go to college to get ahead and then majoring in comparative 14th Egyptian century literature or something like that. How big of a problem is this really? I majored in film, and 95% of my classmates were white and upper-middle class to rich. There certainly were not a lot of misguided poor kids wasting their lives. And me? I don’t regret my path one bit. I bet if you go into an accounting, education or pre-med classroom, you will see a lot more diversity and a lot more people from poor families. In my experience, people from poor families face an enormous amount of family pressure to do “something useful,” and they often are quite aware that their education is considered a family investment that they will be expected to return by bringing in higher incomes. Indeed, these things sometimes work against poor families. The Peace Corps has a notoriously difficult time recruiting from low-income groups, because these groups have so much family pressure to get a “real job” immediately. A lot of people miss out on what is actually an extraordinary career boost. So, can you provide any evidence that the poor are choosing “useless” majors in disproportionate amounts? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/73 "2010-09-24T19:37:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Just googling some stats came up with about 70% of high school students go on to college. So 80% for a school is pretty good. Considering that only about 1/3 of those that go to college actually graduate, I’d definitely agree that “college is not for everyone”. So really only about 23% of high school graduates, go and obtain a college degree. The 47% that piss around and end up not finishing, probably would have been better served getting a real job out of high school and focusing on that. It would be interesting to know which group is better off financially 5 years after high school: A) the 30% that leave high school and go directly into a job, or b) the 47% that attempt college and ultimately drop-out. ---
**Author:** ![maplekiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@maplekiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maplekiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/74 "2010-09-24T20:34:29Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > > [@even\_sven](#): > > > > My problem with these arguments is that they always end up “College isn’t for everyone. Well, of course college is the right choice for _me_ and my children. I guess I’m talking about those guys over there…college isn’t for them!” > > > > Nobody is ever willing to say “Yeah, I’m going to encourage my kid to become a plumber.” It’s always about wanting someone else to encourage their kids to go into the lucrative field of manual labor. Everyone is full of enthusiasm for how awesome the future of trade-school grads is, but oddly nobody wants to choose this path for themselves. It’s fun’n’easy to make other people’s choices for them, especially when the expected results would benefit you (by making your degree rarer and more valuable.) > > **even sven** , I am one of your biggest supporters despite having a different outlook on things. I can see your point most of the time but I don’t believe what you are saying here. You are being insulting to the skilled blue-collar trades here for one thing and I think that the good ones have more prestige than your random college grad without some other good plans and directions. They also tend to make more money which is what really talks. Anyone can weld steel to steel but true welding is both and art and a highly in demand technical specialty that can pay well into the upper-middle class range just on rates alone. > > Good plumbers aren’t just glorified handymen. Lots of them own their own businesses and can branch off into lots of different types of specialty work and command high pay accordingly especially once they get people to work under them. There are lots of bad construction contractors but the really good ones get the respect and pay that goes along with that. > > I have a college degree but I work in a factory myself as a consultant. I get a big office but I still have to wear steel-toed shoes to work everyday because I am out on the floor a lot sometimes getting dirty. Engineers with masters degrees from prestigious schools have to do the same. I don’t know why people knock the more hands-on work. You can easily make 6 figures in the trades if you build it up over time and have some brains. If you don’t have brains, you can just be reliable and always have some sort of work waiting for you. > > An accomplished cabinet maker has much more prestige in my mind than a random person with only a liberal arts degree to their name. What’s the real difference between an artist and an artisan anyway? I wouldn’t have any problem with my daughters choosing a technical trade especially these days if they like more hands on work. There is lots of room for growth in many trades, even creative ones. > > That beats an MRS degree or a poorly defined liberal arts goal any day. I do think there are lots of people going through undergraduate school that shouldn’t be there. It would be a fine experiment if resources were unlimited and everything was free but it doesn’t work that way. Thanks **Shagnasty** for saying what I was thinking. I’m happy to say I suggested to both my kids they become plumbers. I’m in NZ & they are in really short supply over here. I have suggested several alternate roads to success other than a large student debt. As a junior, my daughter got close to the top of her sport. When it became clear the she wasn’t going to get right to the top I suggested she become a coach. At the time it looked like she could get coaching qualifications for around $800 as opposed to spending thousands on a university degree. But she didn’t want to & its not the sort of thing you succeed in without being really passionate about it. So she went to university has a bunch of qualifications - but has ended up in sales. She is trying to use the marketing part of her degree. My son is in his final year of school. He is wanting to have a gap year & then will try to get in the army or navy (not that easy now.) I worry about him all the time, but would never dream of trying to push him into university. He has needed a lot of support to get this far & I’m exhausted. I’m not sure what he will do if he doesn’t get in the forces. these are scary times. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/75 "2010-09-24T21:18:04Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > College Is Not For Everyone > > Tunnel Vision: How a “College for All” Philosophy Leaves Everyone Behind > > I really do believe that American culture has a very misguided view of higher education. It is seen as a victory to send every kid to college, even if those kids come out with a liberal arts degree that doesn’t give them any real job skills. Doesnt matter if they learn “skills” or not. Too many = too many. Over population is always bad. For example, if every child in America graduated and got a MD degree from medical school, then we would end up with having a group of doctors hanging around every Lowes parking lot at 6 in the morning, hoping to get onboard a pickup truck for day labor picking fruit. Do you get the point? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/76 "2010-09-24T23:20:49Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > In Germany, your whole future well-being doesn’t hinge on getting into “college.” But don’t they decide if you qualified for college when you’re, like 10? I thought unless you were put on the right “track” in the 4th grade its very difficult to enter a university. Can an older adult even enter a German University for personal enrichment? If they don’t have the right high school diploma, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/77 "2010-09-24T23:22:01Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > > [@Voyager](#): > > > > Spike Lee did too. My wife saw his NYU student film, and it was awesome. You might also have heard of this guy called George Lucas … > > Of course, and there are others. They still make up such a small percentage of the total. Film school teaches you how to take two years to make a 20-minute film. Executive producers want someone who can make a two-hour film in two weeks–under budget. It’s about hustling more than taking classes. I heard the director of a new film on Fresh Air yesterday. He had done music videos before moving to a movie, and he said the major benefit was learning the technical aspects of directing - which are pretty major. My daughter acted in a few NYU student films, and I’ve been on the set (actually a borrowed apartment.) It took them so long because they had to figure out the lighting and the framing for each scene. That is damn valuable experience. My daughter listened to every word, and it helped when she made films at the CalArts program. On a real set the technical people do the lighting, but as a directory you had better know what they are doing and how it affects the finished product. From what I read, actors who want to direct hang around the technical people, listen to what they are doing, and try to understand what is going on. It also doesn’t take 2 years to make one film. You make yours your final year, but you also crew on other people’s films so they will crew on yours. All the NYU students, by the way, strongly suggest that you don’t major in film as an undergrad. Hustling is important - and anyone who gets to the end of film school knows how to do that, since you are working on a very tight budget - your own money - but the biggest hustler in the world who doesn’t know how to get good footage shot is not going to be successful. Directing is a lot more subtle than you think. I could never do it in a million years. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/78 "2010-09-24T23:25:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > How big of a problem is this really? I majored in film, and 95% of my classmates were white and upper-middle class to rich. There certainly were not a lot of misguided poor kids wasting their lives. And me? I don’t regret my path one bit. Heh. Given the cost of a Masters level student film, I’m not surprised. I was very relieved when my daughter, after having made films at CalArts over the summer, decided she didn’t want to go in that direction. Or my wallet was. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/79 "2010-09-25T03:18:50Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Of course, and there are others. They still make up such a small percentage of the total. Film school teaches you how to take two years to make a 20-minute film. Executive producers want someone who can make a two-hour film in two weeks–under budget. It’s about hustling more than taking classes. A lot of fields require a bit of hustling to land a job. But it’s a lot easier to hustle if you actually know the technical specifics of the field you are landing a job in. Filmmaking isn’t just a bunch of arrogant jackasses in Armani suits yelling at each other like on Entourage. Where does one learn about how to light a set or which type of camera to use if not film school? Your attitude IMHO is indicative of one of the many things wrong with our country. The idea that people can simply “fake it till they make it” and otherwise hustle themselves into jobs without learning and understanding the fundamentals of that job. > [@Susanann](#): > > Too many = too many. > > Over population is always bad. > > For example, if every child in America graduated and got a MD degree from medical school, then we would end up with having a group of doctors hanging around every Lowes parking lot at 6 in the morning, hoping to get onboard a pickup truck for day labor picking fruit. > > Do you get the point? Unlikely as labor shortages in other professions would drive wages up long before that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801/80 "2010-09-25T04:17:10Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > College is not for everyone, but it should be availiable to anyone who wants it. I think you miss the point bud. The idea of “College for all - Damn the cost” is being foisted upon everyone who _THINKS_ they want it because they aren’t properly educated on the alternatives, which may be more suited to their skills or abilities. So technically…no it should not be available to “anyone who wants it”…for the same reason that cookies are not available to fat kids who have concerned parents. The parents know the cookies aren’t what’s best for their fat little kids, so they withhold the cookies and offer alternatives. Likewise, we should have some (but never will…) societal education on the benefits of planning a career path based on an individual’s abilities and skills/proclivities, as opposed to the golden carrot that hangs behind the veil of an incredibly expensive and often useless diploma. “College should be available to anyone who wants it” will mean something wholly different when we know what we want…as opposed to what we THINK we want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/college-is-not-for-everyone/554801.md?page=5)