# Colleges and enforcement of alcohol rules **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 2, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143 "2014-10-02T00:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/61 "2014-10-03T18:44:05Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Yes, well, the _entire_ USA, every single state, was dry in the past. India had prohibition laws (in populous states) much more recently than America did. Tamil Nadu was a dry state until 2001, and there are apparently ongoing debates about bringing back the laws. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/62 "2014-10-03T19:09:06Z")
The school where I work gets this complaint all the time. Especially when they banned alcohol from the dorms – the students who were old enough to drink complained about their “loss of rights.” But since the college is responsible if anything bad happens, it’s a line they have to draw (especially since the students over 21 and unlikely to stop younger students from drinking. There are about 600 violations a year; public safety usually just confiscates the alcohol. As for a solution to binge drinking, the answer is simple: lower the drinking age to 18 (on campuses). Since everyone would then be able to drink legally, there’s less need to binge. If you can go down to the Rathskeller (the name of every campus bar I’d ever seen) and buy a beer, it’s no longer a big deal to drink. Plus, since you can now drink at campus functions, you will be able to model your drinking behavior (which is learned) on adults instead of teenagers. Alas, it won’t happen. The anti-drunk-driving movement is too strong, and it would take time for binge drinking to finally be passe, during which you will have the worst possible conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/63 "2014-10-03T20:02:30Z")
Colleges are not responsible “if anything bad happens.” A school could certainly state that whether or not your behavior violates the criminal law is between you and the authorities. A dorm could be treated like any other apartment. Landlords are not responsible, generally, to make sure a 20 year-old tenant isn’t drinking. In the real world, the schools do put conduct codes in their agreements, thus giving them some obligation to enforce those rules. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/64 "2014-10-03T20:07:27Z")
I know this is IMHO but **RealityChuck** I again point out that the actual data suggests that your solution would not work. Binge drinking is not the result of drinking being illegal and does not decrease with lax laws. Stricter laws actually do decrease binge drinking. > [@Hector St Clare](#): > > People clearly get pleasure from drinking and have a more fulfilling social and personal life, would be the benefit. > > We could outlaw drinking entirely as many Muslim states do, and then we’d have _none_ of the problems associated with drinking, so why don’t you want to do that? A more fulfilling social and personal life? I state this as someone who certainly enjoys my occasional wine beer whiskey mezcal and so on … really? There is something wrong if my having a fulfilling personal and social life depended on alcohol being available. Ah the slippery slope argument, always easily to slip when alcohol is involved … American society attempts to navigate a balance between individual rights/freedoms (whether any of agree with those choices or not) and both benefit to society as a whole (such as economic productivity or defense) and society’s interest in protecting its citizens even from their own decisions. It is the last point that gets most contentious but society does have that interest. Hence we require seatbelt use and most states require motorcycle helmets. We require food sold to meet various safety regulations even if people want to buy risky products. It is very much akin to a cost-benefit analysis. I am not personally of strong opinion about where the line should be drawn in terms of alcohol as a matter of legal age. My extant bias is that a lowered age makes more sense although the more I look for data to support that belief the weaker I hold that position. I am reluctantly begin to support the other side because that is were the data leads. Arguments that fail include the slippery slope, that attempts to enforce the age limit will result in more binge drinking, that the problem is too small to be concerned about, and that alcohol is requisite for a 19 year old to have a fulfilling social and personal life. From [The American Journal of Public Health](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866588/) > [@](#): > > … College environments that afford easy access to low-cost alcohol, have few policies restricting accessibility to alcohol, and have lax enforcement of existing policies create the conditions for heavy drinking among college students.8,30,32–43 The Safe and Drug-Free Schools and Communities Act requires college administrators to enforce the minimum legal drinking age of 21 years, a restriction that targets approximately half of the traditional college student population. However, surveys of college administrators indicate that enforcement of alcohol policies at most colleges is limited, and colleges tend to focus their prevention efforts on educational programs for students.44,45 One national survey found that fewer than 1 in 10 underage students who drink alcohol reported experiencing any consequences for violating alcohol policies imposed by their college.8 > > Although the level of enforcement of the minimum legal drinking age of 21 years is low nationally, enforcement and comprehensiveness of policy restrictions do make a difference. At colleges where campus security strongly enforces the alcohol policy, students perceive the stronger enforcement efforts and are less likely to binge drink.34 Underage students who attend college in states with a comprehensive set of control policies restricting underage drinking are less likely to binge drink than underage students in states with no similar policies.8 … > > … Countries with lower minimum legal drinking ages do not fare better. Contrary to the assertion of the Amethyst Initiative, heavy alcohol use among adolescents is a common problem across Europe. Frequent binge drinking among adolescents aged 15 to 16 years in many countries occurs at more than double the rate as in the United States.5,64,65 The European region has the highest overall consumption of alcohol among adults and the highest proportion of alcohol-attributable deaths in the world.65 Further, the experience with lowering the minimum legal drinking age in other countries is consistent with what occurred in the United States in the 1970s. In 1999 New Zealand lowered its national drinking age from 20 years to 18 years, resulting in significant increases in the occurrence of alcohol-involved emergency room admissions and traffic crashes among youths aged 15 to 19 years.66,6 … **Proscutus** the college is not just another landlord. They provide the environment that keeps the police out of it in most cases and are legally obligated to enforce the laws even if in practice they usually do not. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/65 "2014-10-03T20:07:28Z")
> [@Paintcharge](#): > > That’s some high grade BS right there, if I’m interpreting correctly. Athletes get special treatment? Of course – but that’s a whole thread of its own… ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/66 "2014-10-03T20:14:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Proscutus** the college is not just another landlord. They provide the environment that keeps the police out of it in most cases and are legally obligated to enforce the laws even if in practice they usually do not. I completely disagree that a college has any legal obligation to enforce the laws. I say this as a lawyer and a member of a college board of trustees. To the extent they do so, it’s because of a moral incentive (“good of their students”) or concern about civil liability. A state institution (like University of Michigan, for example) is like its own city, with a police force that is an arm of the government. That would be different. A private school has no law enforcement responsibility ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/67 "2014-10-03T20:23:15Z")
**Proscutus** as a lawyer and member of a college board of trustees you may want to read [the pertinent federal law already cited.](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2014-title34-vol1/xml/CFR-2014-title34-vol1-sec86-100.xml) You are simply wrong and in your position that is shameful. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/68 "2014-10-03T23:26:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Proscutus** as a lawyer and member of a college board of trustees you may want to read [the pertinent federal law already cited.](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2014-title34-vol1/xml/CFR-2014-title34-vol1-sec86-100.xml) You are simply wrong and in your position that is shameful. This does not require the college to “enforce the laws”. That’s what law enforcement is for. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/69 "2014-10-03T23:59:13Z")
From the federal law: > [@](#): > > Ensure that the disciplinary sanctions described in paragraph (a)(5) of this section are consistently **enforced**. Bolding mine. So uh yes it does. Do y’all even read wha you comment on? Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/70 "2014-10-04T00:30:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > From the federal law:Bolding mine. > > So uh yes it does. > > Do y’all even read wha you comment on? Sheesh. They are required to have a biennial review of whether the disciplinary sanctions are **consistently** enforced. Wha [sic] you reading? The disciplinary sanctions are set by the school. And if no one is caught, no one is disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/71 "2014-10-04T08:28:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I know this is IMHO but **RealityChuck** I again point out that the actual data suggests that your solution would not work. Binge drinking is not the result of drinking being illegal and does not decrease with lax laws. Stricter laws actually do decrease binge drinking. > > A more fulfilling social and personal life? I state this as someone who certainly enjoys my occasional wine beer whiskey mezcal and so on … really? There is something wrong if my having a fulfilling personal and social life depended on alcohol being available. > > Ah the slippery slope argument, always easily to slip when alcohol is involved … > > American society attempts to navigate a balance between individual rights/freedoms (whether any of agree with those choices or not) and both benefit to society as a whole (such as economic productivity or defense) and society’s interest in protecting its citizens even from their own decisions. It is the last point that gets most contentious but society does have that interest. Hence we require seatbelt use and most states require motorcycle helmets. We require food sold to meet various safety regulations even if people want to buy risky products. It is very much akin to a cost-benefit analysis. > > I am not personally of strong opinion about where the line should be drawn in terms of alcohol as a matter of legal age. My extant bias is that a lowered age makes more sense although the more I look for data to support that belief the weaker I hold that position. I am reluctantly begin to support the other side because that is were the data leads. > > Arguments that fail include the slippery slope, that attempts to enforce the age limit will result in more binge drinking, that the problem is too small to be concerned about, and that alcohol is requisite for a 19 year old to have a fulfilling social and personal life. > > From [The American Journal of Public Health](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866588/) > > **Proscutus** the college is not just another landlord. They provide the environment that keeps the police out of it in most cases and are legally obligated to enforce the laws even if in practice they usually do not. I’m not sure precisely what you’re arguing. I didn’t argue that you can’t have a happy personal and social life without alcohol, just that for many of us (myself certainly included) the quality of our personal and social life is immeasurably _better_ with alcohol than without it. That’s most of the reason why people drink, after all. You’re right that all laws are a tradeoff between costs and benefits: we just disagree on how those costs and benefits balance out. I’d happily pay the costs of having a drinking age of 18, in exchange for the benefits. I assure you I fully agree that “the role of society is to protect people from their own decisions”, and in general I’d support a _much_ more intrusive state than most Americans- in terms of economics, politics, sex, what have you. I’m an authoritarian quasi-communist, after all. It’s just that I don’t think preventing 18-20 year olds from drinking is one of those appropriate areas for the government to suppress. Even Cuba and Russia have lower drinking ages than we do. Lastly, I’m aware of most of those facts you link to, and they don’t at all change my opinion: like I said, my normative opinion here wouldn’t be changed even if a greater risk of traffic accidents was the price we had to pay for it. That being said, I think there are ways to have a lower drinking age, and fewer traffic fatalities, because most other countries seem to manage it. We could start with having a more stringent legal limit for driving- ours is a very lax 0.08 right now. Most countries have a drinking age of 18, _and_ a legal driving limit of 0.05 or lower. If you want to cut down on drunk driving, the obvious solution is to tighten up on drunk driving laws, not on the drinking age (which restricts the freedoms of all sorts of people who have no intention of driving home). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/72 "2014-10-04T08:29:32Z")
Fortunately, Puerto Rico seems to still be a holdout against the Federal government and its bullying with highway funds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/73 "2014-10-04T12:41:31Z")
Is there support for the idea that prohibition of alcohol use has no effect? It seems to me obvious that even if 21 isn’t 100 percent enforceable it must be the case that the 21 law results in fewer under-21s consuming alcohol than would be the case in the absence of the law. People point to Prohibition as having been ineffective, but overall much less alcohol was consumed during Prohibition than before or after. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/74 "2014-10-04T18:42:59Z")
Here is some random information about a few schools’ drinking policies: [http://swarthmorephoenix.com/2014/10/02/how-swat-stacks-up-in-alcohol/](http://swarthmorephoenix.com/2014/10/02/how-swat-stacks-up-in-alcohol/) [http://swarthmorephoenix.com/2014/09/18/party-policy/](http://swarthmorephoenix.com/2014/09/18/party-policy/) The articles discuss a handful of small, liberal arts colleges, and are centered on a recent shift in policy at Swarthmore. Of note: > [@](#): > > Bowdoin College, despite not having an amnesty policy, has seen a dramatic decrease in drinking-related medical incidents since banning hard liquor and drinking games in the 1990s An anecdote, obviously, but not entirely surprising. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/75 "2014-10-04T18:51:48Z")
I thought Swarthmore was in a dry township. Maybe that’s changed. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/76 "2014-10-04T20:03:00Z")
> [@susan](#): > > I thought Swarthmore was in a dry township. Maybe that’s changed. You are correct, in that there are no alcohol sales in the borough, which is small enough to quickly walk across. However, you can bring it in. And you can have parties, free or with a cover charge, where you hand out drinks. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/77 "2014-10-05T01:57:27Z")
They used to use tokens to get around the “sale” problem. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/78 "2014-10-06T21:00:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Proscutus** as a lawyer and member of a college board of trustees you may want to read [the pertinent federal law already cited.](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2014-title34-vol1/xml/CFR-2014-title34-vol1-sec86-100.xml) You are simply wrong and in your position that is shameful. My god, what a terrible regulation. I will check with our compliance officer about this. It appears I am, in fact, wrong. I’m hardly a libertarian, but this is the kind of law that could push one in that direction. . ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/79 "2014-10-06T22:52:54Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > My god, what a terrible regulation. I will check with our compliance officer about this. It appears I am, in fact, wrong. I’m hardly a libertarian, but this is the kind of law that could push one in that direction. . The requirements are so minimal that you may already be in compliance. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143/80 "2014-10-06T23:03:50Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > the argument I’ve heard is that binge drinking is worse when alcohol bans are enforced. I guess the theory is that these young people will think they have to take “full advantage” of the opportunity to drink when they do score some booze and therefore drink way too much. In know that’s a reasonable assumption based on my behavior before I turmed 18. This is my belief as well. When you are 18 or 19 on a college campus, your experience with alcohol is a poor one (long term). Instead of learning to enjoy a beer or a glass of wine with dinner, you consume alcohol at an off-campus party where others encourage you to drink until you vomit. With the former, responsible drinking, it’s just not worth it. The restaurant might ask me for ID, and I get thrown out. Plus if I can convince someone to sell me booze, it might as well be two cases of beer so I can take full advantage of these limited times. And this becomes the introduction to alcohol for most young people. Just think of something equivalent like candy. Do you know of anyone who eats candy or drinks soda until he pukes? Of course not, because he was taught as a 6 or 7 year old that candy is to be eaten in moderate amounts and he has been supervised by his parents in the amount of candy he eats. When he turns 18 or 21, he has that experience under his belt. The legal age of 21 makes the young persons first experiences with alcohol outside of regular supervision and he is constantly told “no alcohol at all!” This steers him to those dives that encourage binge drinking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colleges-and-enforcement-of-alcohol-rules/700143.md?page=5)