Colleges and enforcement of alcohol rules

In My Humble Opinion
81

Funny how “beliefs” persist not only in the absence of evidence but even when data is shown that they are false. (Post #51.)

Proscutus, thank you for acknowledging that. It is notable that ignoring the rule other than in the most superficial manner seems to be the standard. Complying with the directive that the institution of higher learning “will impose disciplinary sanctions on students and employees (consistent with local, State, and Federal law)” is pretty much just plain not done, generally speaking without consequence to the institution. IANAL but I’d still guess that nevertheless equals some exposure.

82

There’s a very strong cultural myth and ideology about alcohol use—that the college experience is incomplete without it, that adolescence and young adulthood are incomplete without it, that it’s some kind of natural right of college students, that depriving a person of alcohol at that age is to deprive him or her of a fulfilling social life. This stuff is entirely a social construct, reinforced through popular culture.

It extends to other things as well. Now disgraced ex-Penn State president Spanier notably began his tenure at the university with an effort to curb excessive alcohol use, and he wasn’t even necessarily going for underage drinking, but the pervasive culture of obnoxious public drinking in College Park.

“This American Life” did two whole shows on Penn State, in which residents of the town have to deal with constant nighttime disturbances, vandalism, littering, people having sex on their lawns, people pissing and shitting on their lawns, assaults, sexual assaults, etc., because of the obnoxious drinking culture.

Alumni associations slammed Spanier hard when he tried to curb public drinking by banning tailgating etc. And these were not college students, who in the bloom of their youth were excessively enthusiastic about their new romance with alcohol.

These were adults, who could drink whenever and wherever they wanted to legally, but, like the students, believed that they had some kind of basic right to get fucked up in public before football games.

Right here in this thread, we had someone declare that this kind of drinking culture was such a basic right that laws should be passed to prevent people from seeking restitution under civil law for life-changing or life-ending injuries resulting from alcohol-related excesses.

The civil law liability system is one of the main ways that our society mitigates risk and is as important as, if not more important, than government-enforced criminal law in making our world a safer place.

But here we have people who think that alcohol is so important, that no one should have to face liability from people falling out of windows or being raped or dying from alcohol poisoning, because, damn it, college kids should be allowed to drink however much they want no matter what happens.

College kids aren’t in some magical world of their own in which they should be protected from the consequences of their actions. But it took decades to get to where we are with drunken driving. It’s going to take decades for the sick excessive alcohol culture on campus to be changed.

83

You do realize that these are all normative statements and as such can’t be demonstrated true or false?

If you do succeed in your neo-puritan crusade to cut down on alcohol in America, just make sure you give me fair warning first, so I have time to emigrate.

84

Did I say any of them were false? I said they were all social constructs. Social constructs can be changed.

I have no crusade, neo-puritan or otherwise, to “cut down on alcohol in America.” What is needed with respect to abuse of alcohol in college is what has been done with respect to drunken driving—the highlighting of the tremendous costs to the approach that young people are encouraged to take with alcohol and tools to curb that approach.

The same approach has worked with tobacco usage. Drunken driving is way down and tobacco usage is way down. It has taken decades, but these show that it can be done.

Part of those campaigns has included pressure on popular culture to stop depicting drunken driving and tobacco usage in a positive light. The same can be done with the excessive alcohol culture in college. It’s not a simple issue and will take a multi-pronged approach.

You, as an adult, will have no reason to leave the country, unless what you really value is the shit that goes on in College Park in the name of youth culture. If all you are interested in is enjoying alcohol responsibly, then I don’t know why this is of such grave concern to you. If what you’re really fighting for is the right to be a public nuisance and create a hazard for yourself and the people around you, that’s a different issue.

85

Good luck trying to change the culture in your favoured direction. I’ll be fighting you all the way though.

Yep, like I said, neo-puritanical nonsense. I already have plenty of reasons to want to emigrate to a civilized country, this is just one of them. Maybe Russia or Cuba: for all that the American government likes to refer to its enemies as ‘unfree’, at least they don’t try to ban 18-year olds from getting wasted on the weekend.

86

Blame the Founding Fathers, for not including “Freedom to Get Wasted” in the Bill of Rights.

87

Better get to Russia quick! They are planning on going to 21 too.

An earlier take by Pravda:

Ach. Uncivilization may spread!

88

A former Ohio State University president was hit by the same sort of criticism when she tried to cut down on alcohol-fueled partying (accompanied by vandalism and sometimes violence) associated with O.S.U. football games. Her successor, Gordon (“My Foot Is Squarely Implanted In My Mouth”) Gee was instantly beloved when he took office and declared greater tolerance for party time.

Defenders of the collegiate “culture” that involves alcohol abuse are not solely students.

89

In my experience, the population of tailgaters is composed primarily of alumni and non-student fans. It’s a separate, if possibly overlapping “culture” than the undergrad partying one. Schools differ; YMMV.

90

Well, yes. I don’t know a single person who drinks who didn’t start before they were 21.

And I don’t see how you can prove anything about binge drinking. The only control I can think of is to use another country with different laws, but then you have the cultural issues. We are still a rather temperate culture when it comes to drinking.

And are you really trying to argue that anything by the Russian government is a good idea? They think they can outlaw homosexuality.

91

So you let your kids drink yourself, but are defending draconian laws to prevent that once they get to college.

I also think it is highly unlikely that your kid didn’t think it was unfair that he was caught smoking marijuana. If he didn’t think it shouldn’t be illegal, why was he doing it?

92

BigT to respond in no particular order -

I was making fun of Hector’s putting Russia up as a model of the civilized approach. I honestly don’t think (s)he is whooshing. No I do not put forth Russia with its huge alcohol problem associated with a long culture of binge consumption and lax enforcement of the laws they have as a model; I merely note that even they see their situation is a serious problem and are trying to correct it.

Data has been presented comparing colleges before and after enforcement policies were more stringently applied and between college campuses and between states; these are pretty damn good controls. Once again, see the studies presented in post 51. More stringent enforcement was asociated with less binge drinking.

I am defending draconian laws? Mocking 19 year olds who whine that college security will not look the other way as they break laws in public and might actually tell them to stop is draconian? You have a strange sense of draconian.

Indeed I do not think that having a sip of wine with dinner in a supervised family setting is a risk factor for binge drinking and out of control behavior. I have no evidence however to support that position however (other than anecdotal) and I acknowledge that. OTOH I would not give my teen a drink in a public space or be offended if someone called me to task for it if I did (with the exception being a sip after the Blessing over the wine at services). Again, my bias is that a lower legal age makes more sense. But the actual evidence is that ignoring the current laws on college campuses results in more binge drinking and alcohol related problems.

I am sorry that it is apparently still unclear. Those are my issues: the binge drinking and the resultant harms to people and property; and the silly offense taken by these entitled twits that someone would dare to point out they are breaking the law and tell them to stop. The rest is a bit of a hijack in response to those who have claimed that there would be less binge drinking if the legal age was 18. while the evidence clearly shows if anything the opposite.

The point with my son is that he is not an idiot or a twit. He did not expect the cop to pretend that the law about possession did not exist. No question he does not think it should be illegal and neither do I. I think marijauna is much less harmful than alcohol. But he and I both know that it is illegal in our state at this time. He would not toke in front of a policeman or even a campus guard and be offended that he was busted for it. He had made a stupid mistake in having a baggie with a trace amount on his person and he, to his misfortune, looked young enough that he was stopped on suspicion of being out after curfew and searched.

93

I’m not a liberal or a (small-d) democrat, so my view of the Founding Fathers is already extremely negative, to say the least.

94

DSeid yes, I’ve heard about the law. I’m doubtful it will pass, though.

Even if it does, though, the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have a drinking age of 18 (in some cases lower).

95

It’s illegal in many countries to have homosexual intercourse. Would you call people there who break the law ‘entitled twits’ too? Or would you agree that some laws are silly?

I do agree with you that a higher drinking age ‘works’, in the sense that it does reduce drinking among people under 21. And it probably does reduce ‘heavy drinking’, if you use the standard definition of five drinks in an evening. Both among 18-21 year olds and, interestingly, among adults. I don’t particularly think those are appropriate social goals any more than banning gay sex is, but if you do, then have at it. As I said, I don’t disagree with you about the facts here, I disagree with you on the normative conclusions.

96

I’d doubt they would openly display their not following the law without an expectation of consequence. Mass civil disobedience is a fine way to protest laws that you strongly disagree with but one does so with full knowledge that consequences may ensue.

97

Same sex sexual activity isn’t illegal in Russia. they do harshly suppress free speech and free association of gay people, but it isn’t illegal to have gay sex in Russia, per se, except for Chechnya. I strongly don’t support the Russian laws bout homosexuality (I support some other policies of the Russian government, but not the anti gay ones), but let’s not exaggerate what the laws say.