# Coloradans: Your Governor Wants You To Say Bienvenidos to Illegal Aliens **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024 "2005-02-02T19:26:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/61 "2005-02-06T02:53:22Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > Steven > Well you are an old fart aren’t you. > Lucky you. You live in an area where there must still be a few electronics jobs. Believe me the computer stuff is just temporary. > I already see many more computer graduates that the few jobs will support. You already know what happens then. > Still luckier that you consider yourself young enough that it was worth it to go to school. Well, I prefer to call myself experienced or something, whatever the new doubletalk is these days. California still has a going aerospace industry and I work with NASA. I am grateful that I am within shouting distance of retirement (I am 52 now, with about 25 years on the job) and won’t have to worry. If I was just starting out, I would be worried to be honest. The competition is fierce. But, I would be more worried about outsourcing to other countries. I hope you stayed at one place to get some sort of nest egg. Still, it is our own people, the corporations that are downsizing and outsourcing, not any outsiders. It is our own people who like to use up workers and then toss them on the trash heap. “We have met the enemy and he is us” sums it up. My advice to any people entering the job market now would be to be mercenary and selfish. Use whatever company you work for and be willing to jump ship every time a better offer comes along. The days of advancing up the coorporate ladder are gone. There is no longer any such thing as job security, if there ever was. Show the suits the same loyalty they will show you - none. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/62 "2005-02-06T03:08:28Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > Of what relevance are the job skills an objector (to job competition by non-U.S. citizens)? > > What moral arguments would allow an Italian citizen to work as an actor in the U.S., but disallow a Costa Rican carpenter? Why allow competition for “crappy jobs” but not for good ones, or vice versa? My contention is that there _is_ no competition for jobs by undocumented workers. UWs work in a completely different job market than citzens. Fear mongering about job competition is specious at best. Any citizen who is in legitimate danger of losing his or her job to an illegal alien is A.) secerely deficit in job skills or education and b.) has the full recourse of law if he or she knows of illegal hiring practices by an American employer. “Day took 'ar jawbs” is a pathetic strawman when it comes to illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/63 "2005-02-06T04:59:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What kind of crappy job do you have that it’s in danger of being taken by an “illegal?” If you are at that low a level of employment might I suggest getting a GED or something. > > Also, you can report your employer if they are engaging in illegal hiring practices. Right now I’m unemployed. Training you say? I’ve done everything from electronics technician engineering assistant to roofing to truck driving hauling chemicals to hog farmer hired hand. My latest job lasted 3 days. Packing rubber hose in boxes. I worked at the local electronics plant for nearly 2 years before being suspiciously laid off last year.It seems they want to train new electronics school graduates. Enough about me. You guys have a lot to worry about. You just don’t know it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/64 "2005-02-06T05:21:35Z")
What do any of your employment problems have to do with illegal immigration? ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/65 "2005-02-06T05:42:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What do any of your employment problems have to do with illegal immigration? I’m going to need to work until I die. Someone above asked about time on the job and money stashed. I have none. Poor planning? Nope. Poor wages. I don’t need any more competition from illegals who, just simply by their presence, are keeping the wages down. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/66 "2005-02-06T05:48:35Z")
You don’t HAVE any competition from illegals. That’s my point. It’s a completely different job market. Whatever the causes for your unemployment, illegal immigration isn’t one of them and isn’t going to be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/67 "2005-02-06T06:04:42Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > Right now I’m unemployed. > Training you say? > I’ve done everything from electronics technician engineering assistant to roofing to truck driving hauling chemicals to hog farmer hired hand. > My latest job lasted 3 days. Packing rubber hose in boxes. > I worked at the local electronics plant for nearly 2 years before being suspiciously laid off last year.It seems they want to train new electronics school graduates. > Enough about me. > You guys have a lot to worry about. You just don’t know it yet. Are you telling us to be afraid? Because I remember being told to be afraid the Russians would drop A-bombs on us. They didn’t. Then I was told to be afraid of our eroding morals, that punk rock music, teen pregnancy, homosexuality and drug abuse would destroy our society. They haven’t. Then I was told to be afraid that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, that Al-Qaida would hijack more planes, that they would mail me anthrax. None of those things have happened. Xenophobia is un-American, we are a nation of immigrants. There were people coming here without papers in the 20s and earlier. None of them have destroyed our society yet. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/68 "2005-02-06T06:28:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You don’t HAVE any competition from illegals. That’s my point. It’s a completely different job market. Whatever the causes for your unemployment, illegal immigration isn’t one of them and isn’t going to be one of them. No what I am saying in part is that I am going to need casual labor when I begin to draw SS. It is casual labor that the illegals are doing. BTW there are surely other citizens that need to do casual labor right now. As far as my immediate employment problems I am having more trouble from bored early retirees right now. BTW there are many many spanish speaking folks that have been doing the same part time work as I have. So many that it seems suspicious to me that so many cannot speak english. We also have some asian folks that cannot speak english too but not nearly so many. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/69 "2005-02-06T16:05:21Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > Right now I’m unemployed. > Training you say? > I’ve done everything from electronics technician engineering assistant to roofing to truck driving hauling chemicals to hog farmer hired hand. > It seems they want to train new electronics school graduates. > Enough about me. > You guys have a lot to worry about. You just don’t know it yet. QUick questions - Have you considered consulting or “job shopper” work? It can be sporadic, but with luck, can pay very well. There are plenty of “experts from afar” who know a lot less than you do, and you have hands on practical experience. I don’t know exactly where you live, but if you are in the right area, you might be able to get in at a local defense contractor / subcontractor. If Bush can push through the Mars missions, and if NASA follows up on the Jupiter Icy Moons projects, you may be able to get in. There are also rumors of a replacement for the current space shuttle. They will need engineers, test technicians, QA people, the works. Best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/70 "2005-02-06T20:14:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > QUick questions - > Have you considered consulting or “job shopper” work? It can be sporadic, but with luck, can pay very well. There are plenty of “experts from afar” who know a lot less than you do, and you have hands on practical experience. I don’t know exactly where you live, but if you are in the right area, you might be able to get in at a local defense contractor / subcontractor. If Bush can push through the Mars missions, and if NASA follows up on the Jupiter Icy Moons projects, you may be able to get in. There are also rumors of a replacement for the current space shuttle. They will need engineers, test technicians, QA people, the works. Best of luck. Thanks for the response and the concern. I currently have 4 employment services looking for jobs for me.They all know me by name. I don’t know how hard they are looking 😃 though. Defense contractor work here in town is how I started my “Electronics career.” Maybe I shouldn’t have stayed here but thats ancient history. My point here in this thread is the illegals are making things hard on low income Americans. They haven’t entered this country legally. So/and they shouldn’t be here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/71 "2005-02-06T20:20:44Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > My point here in this thread is the illegals are making things hard on low income Americans. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/72 "2005-02-07T00:19:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > My contention is that there _is_ no competition for jobs by undocumented workers. UWs work in a completely different job market than citzens. You’re right. There isn’t any competition for the jobs that undocumented workers do. Because they’ve driven down the wages so much in those fields that you can’t work them without accepting a substantially lower quality of life now. My dad is in construction (plumbing to be exact). He’s watched over the last 40 years the situation progress to the point where it’s now difficult to do his job (he is a supervisor now but wasn’t always) because three-quarters of the people on the job sites can’t, or won’t, speak English. It used to be the guys that hung drywall. Then it was the guys that did plumbing. Now it’s the guys that do the electrical wiring and stuff that are being replaced. I have a hard time faulting them for wanting to come here and better their lives, but to deny that they’ve had a negative impact on the economy or haven’t hurt American workers is just stupid and sticking your head in the sand. They don’t do jobs Americans don’t want, they do jobs that people in nice offices or upper management don’t want. The middle class may get cheaper oranges but it displaces the working poor who are citizens and grew up here. My dad tells me all the time about the legal Mexicans here that he works with – apparently a lot of them aren’t too happy with the situation either. Because they’ve come here and gone through all the troubles to become citizens, get a decent paying job at the entry level, only to gradually find themselves being replaced by even cheaper illegal workers. Really the government needs to do something to help Mexico so they don’t want or need to flood over here to begin with, and crack down on the companies employing them. Drive through the neighbourhoods where they live some time. Who-ever called it importing poverty was right on the mark. It’s really not helping anybody. If letting people immigrate by the truckload was beneficial to countries, I’d be able to just pop up to Canada and get a job working in a grocery store. But I can’t, because for a company to hire me in Canada they have to prove they couldn’t find a Canadian to do the job first. That is not the case here with illegal workers. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/73 "2005-02-07T04:42:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Cite? Pull your head out of the sand and look around. Geesh! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/74 "2005-02-07T05:03:40Z")
In other words you can’t back up your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/75 "2005-02-07T05:20:14Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In other words you can’t back up your assertions. [here](http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=US+unemployment+january+2005&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D5960791f059b1b4e%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3DUS%2Bunemployment%2Bjanuary%2B2005%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.businessreport.co.za%252Findex.php%253FfArticleId%253D2388552%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPSuggestion%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessreport.co.za%2Findex.php%253FfArticleId%253D2388552) A look at unemployment figures is all thats needed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/76 "2005-02-07T06:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > A look at unemployment figures is all thats needed. Actually, it is not. The number of illegal aliens hanging out in Northeast Ohio or Southeast Michigan is negligible, yet unemployment in those areas is high. **Diogenes** is right that we have not _yet_ seen the direct bearing of illegal immigration on the loss of jobs among citizens. **jinwicked** ’s testimony comes closer, but still suffers from an anecdotal base. (For example, if the legal immigrants are upset about these illegal supplanters of jobs, why does it appear that they (who presumably would recognize more easily their illegal associates), turn those illegal workers in to the INS?) Now, this is not to say that **Diogenes** is correct. I am not at all sure that a blanket statement that illegal workers are _only_ taking jobs no citizen would want can be substantiated, however much it might make (some of) us feel better about the situation. (There _may_ be _some_ validity to it: a few years ago, the job “cowboy” was opened up as a valid immigrant occupation on the grounds that many ranches can no longer find local help to hire. On the other hand, major businesses have been quite successful in getting Congress to authorize an exorbitant number of H-1B visas so as to permit larger numbers of foreign programmers to be admitted.) Of course, I do not recall **Diogenes** providing substantiated, documented support for his position, either, regardless how plausible he may make it sound. I am afraid that in this discussion, while I find **Polycarp** ’s arguments to be quite valid against John Tanton and Pat Buchanan, they do not actually address the issue of economic harm to the nation. In an ideal world, I would support totally open borders (or the elimination of borders). However, I have decades of viewing the world as a much less than ideal place, and in this discussion, I am interested in the results of open or closed borders in _this_ world. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/77 "2005-02-07T06:58:17Z")
_why does it appear that they (who presumably would recognize more easily their illegal associates), **are not** turn_ing\*\* _those illegal workers in to the INS?_ ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/78 "2005-02-07T16:40:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, it is not. The number of illegal aliens hanging out in Northeast Ohio or Southeast Michigan is negligible, yet unemployment in those areas is high. > > **Diogenes** is right that we have not _yet_ seen the direct bearing of illegal immigration on the loss of jobs among citizens. **jinwicked** ’s testimony comes closer, but still suffers from an anecdotal base. (For example, if the legal immigrants are upset about these illegal supplanters of jobs, why does it appear that they (who presumably would recognize more easily their illegal associates), turn those illegal workers in to the INS?) > > Now, this is not to say that **Diogenes** is correct. I am not at all sure that a blanket statement that illegal workers are _only_ taking jobs no citizen would want can be substantiated, however much it might make (some of) us feel better about the situation. (There _may_ be _some_ validity to it: a few years ago, the job “cowboy” was opened up as a valid immigrant occupation on the grounds that many ranches can no longer find local help to hire. On the other hand, major businesses have been quite successful in getting Congress to authorize an exorbitant number of H-1B visas so as to permit larger numbers of foreign programmers to be admitted.) > > Of course, I do not recall **Diogenes** providing substantiated, documented support for his position, either, regardless how plausible he may make it sound. > > I am afraid that in this discussion, while I find **Polycarp** ’s arguments to be quite valid against John Tanton and Pat Buchanan, they do not actually address the issue of economic harm to the nation. In an ideal world, I would support totally open borders (or the elimination of borders). However, I have decades of viewing the world as a much less than ideal place, and in this discussion, I am interested in the results of open or closed borders in _this_ world. **Diogenes** is right that we have not _yet_ seen the direct bearing of illegal immigration on the loss of jobs among citizens. **jinwicked** ’s testimony comes closer, but still suffers from an anecdotal base. (For example, if the legal immigrants are upset about these illegal supplanters of jobs, why does it appear that they (who presumably would recognize more easily their illegal associates), turn those illegal workers in to the INS?) But the loss of jobs is not the only question. Do we see that the Illegals are preventing legals,whoever they are, from obtaining new jobs. Taking a part time job to supplement income is a popular way of paying bills,buying a second car, whatever. I’m saying its a given that anyone here illegally who works at a job is hampering ,if not stopping ,legal citizens from these jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/79 "2005-02-07T21:15:39Z")
I think this thread illustrates well the pitfalls of making policy without a philosophy: both the far Left and Right in the U.S. don’t argue coherently against job competition. Righties are usually impelled by racism and concerns about socialism, Lefties are … a bit more muddled in their criticism. **Diogenes the Cynic** points out to **justwannano** that \*\*j’\*\*s job has not been affected by Electrical Engineers swimming the Rio Grande. In this **DoC** is probably right, but it misses the point. **DotC** seems to take the position that undocumented immigrants work only as agricultural harvesters, and that any U.S. citizen who is competing with them is such a loser that he deserves his plight. I suspect that **D** would assume that the “punishment” for such a loser who refused to educate himself into a better job would not be starvation, but support by the welfare state. With such punishment, it is no surprise that our hypothetical loser neither sucks it up and accepts the going wage for lettuce harvesting, nor cracks the books. I would guess this is factually wrong and that immigrants move from harvesting to take jobs in landscaping, plumbing, construction, clerks, transportation, and on and on. **jinwicked** mentions this. Instead, **justwannano** is upset by competition from foreign workers/the lack of tariffs and quotas. At bottom, complaints against unlicensed, undocumented Mexican plumbers and hardworking, low wage Korean electronics assemblers are about the same thing: competition. Some trades, like agriculture or plumbing, can’t be done somewhere else, due to the nature of the job. Manufacturing can. I think it a strange argument to say “Don’t complain about non-U.S. citizen workers because 1. if you are mad about them taking agriculture jobs, you are a loser, and 2. if in any other job, report your employer for an illegal practice.” Why are agricultural jobs the only one that deserve such treatment.? What happens if **D** or someone decides that housecleaning or unstopping sinks are “crappy” jobs? Presumably any U.S. worker in that field loses the right to expel unwanted competitors. As we climb up the economic ladder, the hypocrisy of Lefties calling “racism” becomes evident. Some people will argue that there are enough riches in the U.S. to give the benefits of the welfare state to the whole world. This is essentially the position of those that want to allow immigrants to unionize. In this view, higher than equilibrium, union wages can be given by fiat to everyone without causing unemployment. This position is rare. More typically, a left-Dem. realizes the welfare state would break if subjected to this, and then such a person has to come up with characteristics to distinguish between U.S. and non-U.S. workers. To avoid racism these distinctions can’t be on race, creed, national origin, etc. Thus you have to distinguish on silly things like the geographic location of birth, or what political entity controlled some distant ancestor of a prospective worker. In a sensible world, the decision who to hire for a certain job would depend on the skills and preferences of employers and employees. > [@tomndebb](#): > > a few years ago, the job “cowboy” was opened up as a valid immigrant occupation on the grounds that many ranches can no longer find local help to hire. Think about it: If I have a ranch and want to hire cowboys, why do I have to interview every last American for the job before I can hire a skilled Mexican? Is one of the inalienable rights granted by the Creator to every American the right of first refusal of every job in America? > [@tomndebb](#): > > On the other hand, major businesses have been quite successful in getting Congress to authorize an exorbitant number of H-1B visas so as to permit larger numbers of foreign programmers to be admitted. Don’t most people now agree that is was hubris to think that an entire economy can by planned and controlled by a few People’s Ministers? Determining what is an “exorbitant” amount of software engineers and what is a correct one is something that gets worked out by a market, not by politicians. One of the sources I mentioned previously has some online [chapters](http://www.invisibleheart.com/Iheart/CSampleC1.html) I realize it can be hard to learn new things, especially when unemployed. I have been unemployed from the software industry for 3 years. I’m proud to say it has not changed my feelings on free trade, just as I am proud that I have never stolen food even when I was hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024/80 "2005-02-07T21:29:37Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > At the risk of killing this thread, like this [post and cites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5681804&postcount=67) did on **Hyper** ’s last thread, the second half of the post addresses the costs of illegal immigration to the state of California. > > Even legal immigrant workers are getting displaced by illegals - [Immigration and Job Displacement](http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1210&c=15) > > The illegal immigration is not the problem…it is a symptom. The problem is the country of [Mexico](http://www.usbc.org/profiles/profiles2001/0901vicentefoxshow.htm) itself and it’s government. With high level corruption in their government, they have no problem exporting their poor by turning a blind eye to their people leaving the country, yet have tight security at their southern border to keep poorer Central Americans out of their own country (where some may stay and others head to the US). Hypocritical is an understatement here. Dual citizenship is another sticking point as well. Full amnesty will not solve anything, just reinforce the notion that illegal immigration is just stepping stone towards citizenship, and apparentally, the new (or not so new) accepted way to becoming a citizen. > > The Mexican government needs an overhaul to help their own citizens and economy. The Mexican people can only do what is necessary to stay alive, and the easiest (which is not that easy at all) is coming here and work to support their families, whether back home or alongside them here. It’s tough nut to crack. From my second cite: > [@](#): > > Many politicians and some citizens do not concern themselves with such displacement since it affects primarily low-skilled Americans, who tend to lack political clout. As a result, immigration has been responsible for 40 to 50 percent of the wage depression for workers without a high school degree in recent decades.12 Some estimates indicate that nearly two million Americans a year are displaced by immigration.[sup]13[/sup] Go ahead and take the time to go over these cites. I do agree that neither left or right has any real solutions that will solve the problem, because the problem is the Mexican government itself. Illegal immigration is only the symptom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coloradans-your-governor-wants-you-to-say-bienvenidos-to-illegal-aliens/288024.md?page=5)