# Colorado baker sued again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732 "2018-08-16T14:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/61 "2018-08-16T20:00:32Z")
Other than the legislation the activist conservative judges are trying to push through, of course. The Constitution nowhere says that people are allowed to discriminate against homosexuals or trangendered folks (or women or blacks, for that matter), but theyr’e going to claim that it does. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/62 "2018-08-16T20:04:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree that that’s discrimination. But I think the easiest proof of discrimination is if he refuses to bake an **identical** cake for a trans person. > > Thus the test: > > 1. Activist one goes in and says, “Hey, Mister Baker Man! My daughter just graduated high school. Her school colors are pink and blue. Could you bake a strawberry cake with blue frosting that says, ‘Congratulations Autumn’ on it?” > 2. Activist two goes in and says, “Hey, Mister Baker Man! I am celebrating the anniversary of my transition from male to female. Could you bake a strawberry cake with blue frosting that says, ‘Congratulations Autumn’ on it?” > > If he’ll bake the first cake but not the second cake, his claim that “That’s a cake I can’t create for anybody” is patently untrue. Per his own words in [today’s USAToday oped](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/16/jack-phillips-despite-my-supreme-court-victory-im-still-under-attack-column/996588002/), Jack Phillips states > [@](#): > > … a Colorado lawyer called my shop and requested a cake that I’ve never before created. It was a cake with a pink interior and blue exterior that the lawyer said was to represent and celebrate a gender transition. So if he hasn’t made the same cake before for a cis-gendered individual this may not be quite the test case the complaining attorney Autumn Scardina was hoping for. And it may have the opposite effect. Look ahead for a possible _Masterpiece Cakeshop v2.0_ case at the high court. But with Kennedy retired and a possible Kavanaugh replacement the court’s conservative majority might decide to get to the meat of the argument and rule in a way that Scardina may regret. Justice Alito, during oral arguments in _Masterpiece Cakeshop v1.0_, asked [a question](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20665937&postcount=970) that focused on what LHoD’s example illustrates. In short, context matters and a baker likely would not be required to sell two physically identical cakes if the use of one would be to express an idea the baker objects to. In Alito’s example he used the phrase “November 9, the best day in history” which might celebrate a wedding anniversary or the horrors of Kristalnacht. Alito clearly telegraphed that a baker should be able to choose to produce such a cake for an anniversary but not for a neo-Nazi celebrating Kristalnacht. And before anyone chimes that neo-Nazis are not a protected class, the [federal courts have upheld](https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/205/1014/2332160/) [Christian Identity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity#Groups) white nationalist types of [churches](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/05/31/white-supremacy-church-claims-ohio-town-region/657555002/) as a religion. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/63 "2018-08-16T20:15:45Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Why advocate a _weaker_ test with the product precisely identical, just because it’s easier to prove discrimination? We’re not trying to prove that this particular baker is a bigot. We already know that. We want to clarify the boundary - to what extent can a bigot legally discriminate in running their business? > > It seems to me that if a baker (or anyone else) offers a personalized product, and two products are essentially the same, but with the only difference arising from a refusal to personalize the product to a particular person _because of their identity_ (in a protected class), then that discrimination should be illegal. Because that was the test that this particular baker already failed. In the original case, they hadn’t even gotten to any design details when the baker flatly refused to make a cake for a gay wedding. It’s a bit of an oddball discrimination – he’s discriminating against certain acts by LGBT people – wedding, transition. But, he would bake a cake (he says) for their birthday. I don’t know if that’s actually ever been tested with him. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/64 "2018-08-16T20:15:59Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Why do you keep using this “hang a shingle” metaphor? There was never any signage in question. Cliche attention-getters don’t work with me and they did not work with the Supremes, either. I’ll answer your diversionary question. (Have you any non-diversionary questions?) I use the phrase “hang a shingle” because it’s an entirely appropriate term to use. Simple as that. Especially since one of the several bullshit counterarguments is “The marginalized people can just go to a baker that isn’t a bigot, so there’s no problem.” Tell me, dear defender of bigotry, how are the marginalized people supposed to do that if it’s not clear which shops are manned by bigots? Do they go from door to door, wasting time trying to discover which business owners put business before bigotry and hatred? Exposing themselves unnecessarily to insult (at best)? The answer, of course, is that if the bakers don’t hang a literal shingle (and there are legitimate reasons not to - to fool decent people of the non-marginalized type into thinking that they’re not doing business with a bigot, for example) then somebody else will [do it for them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/65 "2018-08-16T20:47:03Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > No legislation has been been proposed or re-evaluated over this matter, so you are absolutely and utterly wrong on that statement. Oh sure there have. Not the cake specifically but sodomy laws, bathroom laws, same-sex marriage bans and so on. Yes the courts have overturned a lot of those but clearly many states will pass discriminatory laws against LGBTQ people given the chance. More to the point the baker is just trying an end run around previous decisions by trying to get the court to allow discrimination based on free speech or religious freedom. Once that door is opened all manner of shenanigans allowing discrimination become possible. > [@](#): > > Nothing like an extreme example to make your hysterical point. Equating a small, private bakery with “public service” in this context is just irrational and a great example of the hype and stupidity of this case… I showed you a book people needed to be able to travel in parts of the US because so many services were unavailable to them due to discrimination. It was published for 30 years. I’d call that pervasive. > [@](#): > > And next month or next year it will be some other minority or special interest begging for attention any way they can get it. Better luck next time… If someone is denied equal protection of the laws or are discriminated against why not? Too bad if it bothers you that these uppity people won’t just know their place and shut-up. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/66 "2018-08-16T21:14:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Other than the legislation the activist conservative judges are trying to push through, of course. The Constitution nowhere says that people are allowed to discriminate against homosexuals or trangendered folks (or women or blacks, for that matter), but theyr’e going to claim that it does. The Constitution isn’t a document that “allows“ people to do anything. The Constitution is a document that grants the current government powers to do some things. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/67 "2018-08-16T21:20:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The Constitution isn’t a document that “allows“ people to do anything. The Constitution is a document that grants the current government powers to do some things. What’s your point? That discrimination is okay? That the constitution successfully gave the current government the power to criminalize it? That people who aren’t part of the current government can do everything, up to and especially including killing minorities and eating them with fava beans and a nice chianti? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/68 "2018-08-16T22:17:51Z")
The only people that care about this case are the LBGQ activists and whoever they can manage to get riled up over it. Like those over-analyzing it here. It’s a very small, vocal minority who really give more than 2 shits about it. Guy won’t bake cakes for gays. Big flying fucking deal. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/69 "2018-08-16T22:23:25Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > The only people that care about this case are the LBGQ activists and whoever they can manage to get riled up over it. Like those over-analyzing it here. Given that you are doubtlessly going to define anybody who supports the antibigotry position a LBGQ activist, this is both axiomatically true and completely meaningless. > [@BeenJammin](#): > > It’s a very small, vocal minority who really give more than 2 shits about it. Guy won’t bake cakes for gays. Big flying fucking deal. Got stats? Poll? Something other than your baldface dismissal? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/70 "2018-08-16T22:57:19Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > The only people that care about this case are the LBGQ activists and whoever they can manage to get riled up over it. Like those over-analyzing it here. > > It’s a very small, vocal minority who really give more than 2 shits about it. Guy won’t bake cakes for gays. Big flying fucking deal. True, but one more group of people that may care, and that is humans that have any sort of empathy for other humans. It is not entirely clear whether or not those with short sighted selfish motives have taken the majority, it is entirely possible that it is only the minority that gives two shits about other people, but I try to be more optimistic than that. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/71 "2018-08-16T23:24:08Z")
Civil rights laws have been well codified for quite some time. Bigots will always be bigots. No amount of legislation or public opinion will ever change that. If you can’t wait for them to die off, you can just go on enjoying the frustration of trying to change their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/72 "2018-08-16T23:24:12Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > The only people that care about this case are the LBGQ activists and whoever they can manage to get riled up over it. Like those over-analyzing it here. > > It’s a very small, vocal minority who really give more than 2 shits about it. Guy won’t bake cakes for gays. Big flying fucking deal. Then there’s the people who are even _more_ riled up about how people shouldn’t get so riled up about this. That’s what gets me riled up. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/73 "2018-08-16T23:25:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Got stats? Poll? Something other than your baldface dismissal? Countering your opinion doesn’t take anywhere near that much consideration. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/74 "2018-08-16T23:27:25Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Then there’s the people who are even _more_ riled up about how people shouldn’t get so riled up about this. That’s what gets me riled up. Glad to help! 🙂 I’m really only mildly indignant towards the stupid waste of resources spent batting this one back and forth. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/75 "2018-08-16T23:34:46Z")
The baker _says_ that he’s never made a cake like that before. How much do you want to bet that there was a previous customer who did, in fact, order that exact cake, complete with video of them buying it and cutting it? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/76 "2018-08-16T23:38:16Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Countering your opinion doesn’t take anywhere near that much consideration. You mean _failing_ to counter my opinion. It only counters my opinion if you actually bring some kind of counterargument, other than your own randomly shouted opinion. I mean, I get it. You’re wrong. You’re in the wrong. You’re arguing that bigots should be able to break the law in the way they conduct their business. That’s pretty damned wrong. The _not_-stupid argument in favor of the bigots is to lean on the first amendment - “I’m an asshole and I have a constitutional right to be an asshole”. Problem is that the circumstances of these events don’t make that argument easy. It’s all hard and stuff and not too convincing. So instead you’re taking the “this is not a problem, black people LOVED slavery and practically nobody complained!”-style of argument, arguing that all these protests and legal suits are nothing to see here. Don’t think about it too hard -look, over there, a squirrel! The problem with that approach, of course, is that it’s unsupportable bullshit unless you can actually demonstrate that the minority in this case so to small as to merit being crushed. Which you haven’t done. AFTER you do that, then we can discuss whether people who aren’t in the majority should be heinously mistreated, not before. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/77 "2018-08-16T23:50:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I mean, I get it. You’re wrong. You’re in the wrong. You’re arguing that bigots should be able to break the law in the way they conduct their business. That’s pretty damned wrong. No that’s not what happened, not what I’m saying and not anywhere near the issue here. Bye. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/78 "2018-08-16T23:52:16Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > No that’s not what happened, not what I’m saying and not anywhere near the issue here. Bye. 😉 Have a nice evening. (Your prior posts haven’t gone anywhere, though.) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/79 "2018-08-17T00:14:26Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > The only people that care about this case are the LBGQ activists and whoever they can manage to get riled up over it. Like those over-analyzing it here. > > It’s a very small, vocal minority who really give more than 2 shits about it. Guy won’t bake cakes for gays. Big flying fucking deal. Absolutely fucking wrong. I am a heterosexual middle aged white male with an above average income. I absolutely care and want ALL people to be treated equally - and that includes when going shopping at a public store. There’s a couple of quotes that sum it up quite nicely - a) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that **all men are created equal** , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. b) Do to others as you would have them do to you. It’s funny how bible thumping bigots so easily forget the most basic of things . ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732/80 "2018-08-17T00:29:47Z")
Mmmm, now I’m really craving cake . . . I’m a big 'ol gay girl and am kinda “meh” on this. Yeah, CakeMan is a bigoted shithead and needs to follow the law; OTOH, I think there are more important battles to give our time, money and attention to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorado-baker-sued-again/819732.md?page=5)