# Colorless Mafia

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729>\
**Category:** The Game Room\
**Created:** [December 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729 "2009-12-02T18:21:59Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 10

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**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/181 "2009-12-07T12:51:51Z")

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I know some people weren’t expecting the game to start until this evening, but I did state I would start it early if we hit 20 players. Which we did.

In any case, it shouldn’t matter. There is plenty of time for everyone to participate. So far, only storyteller has not confirmed, and I’m not at all concerned. I’m certain he’ll be around.

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**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/182 "2009-12-07T12:54:32Z")

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**Vote Count** with about 3 days, 13 hours and 6 minutes to go  
12 Votes required to start Countdown.

(peak vote in Parenthesis)

**1 Vote**  
\ ***Pedescribe** (1 #86) ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (86)  
**Mahaloth** (1 #135) peekercpa (135)

\ ***Lynch Leader**

**Not Voting** : Mahaloth, Nanook, Tom Scud, Drain Bead, Freudian Slit, pedescribe, ToeJam, USCDiver, DiggitCamara, storyteller, Ichini Sanshigo, Red Skeezix, Zeriel, MHaye, amrussel, Rin Twisted, GuiriEnEspaña, Mental Guy

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**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/183 "2009-12-07T12:57:46Z")

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> [@USCDiver](#):
>
> Except \*\*peeker \*\*wasn’t talking about lynching a miller, he was talking about lynching a player who tries to sow confusion by talking about exotic roles when there aren’t any. He simply used ‘miller discussion’ as an example.

Well, if there aren’t any roles except for the ones that are listed he shouldn’t have brought it up at all.

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**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/184 "2009-12-07T13:04:48Z")

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Hey, all. Just checking in after a long, long weekend (finally succeeded in buying a house, so huzzah!). Will read and comment presently.

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**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/185 "2009-12-07T13:36:43Z")

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> [@amrussell](#):
>
> 1. If the Cop finds the scum Roleblocker, they should probably claim with this info right away.

Unfortunately, the Cop only gets alignments, so they won’t know the difference between a scum goon and the roleblocker.

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**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/186 "2009-12-07T13:50:56Z")

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> [@storyteller0910](#):
>
> Hey, all. Just checking in after a long, long weekend (finally succeeded in buying a house, so huzzah!). Will read and comment presently.

Congrats!

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**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/187 "2009-12-07T14:08:55Z")

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> [@special\_ed](#):
>
> sorry about that. The PM is sent now

Got it!

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**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/188 "2009-12-07T14:22:27Z")

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> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#):
>
> You might be able to accuse me of smearing him if I didn’t put his name down in blue in the same post, but I did, so neener neener.

Yes, but you are still completely missing the point, that being that the accusation “seemingly innocent, potentially smearing inferences” is so vague and broad as to be useless, and certainly not good enough for a vote.

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**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/189 "2009-12-07T15:04:36Z")

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> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> Well, **peeker** said he was for lynching the miller and I agreed, I guess not having read carefully enough that there were no millers, then he jumped down my throat because there were no millers. I have no idea why he even brought them up then! Was he setting a trap so he could say, “SEE, you’re not paying enough attention?” I really don’t get why no one’s saying it’s dumb that **peeker** brought up the lynch the miller and everyone’s acting like I brought it up out of nowhere!

where in the world did i say anything about lynching a miller?

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**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/190 "2009-12-07T15:05:58Z")

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neta:

i see **diver** already brought this up.

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**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/191 "2009-12-07T15:08:09Z")

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> [@amrussell](#):
>
> Confirming, somewhat belatedly.
> 
> In strategy terms, I’m thinking that the scum’s strongest role is their Roleblocker. In fact, I think that for scum to win, their Roleblocker has to outlive at least one of the Doc and the Cop. If we nail the Roleblocker while both those town roles are alive and unclaimed, we’re in a very strong position: the Cop can claim, get protection from the unknown Doc, then reveal their results and start buiding a masonry/outing scum. Even if the scum get incredibly lucky at that point, the Cop will get at least one more result while the scum hunt the Doc, plus however many results he/she has to date. The Roleblocker is the only one scum role who can stop this.
> 
> Now, unfortunately, there’s no way we can particularly hunt for the Roleblocker as opposed to any other scum role, but if the above analysis is right then there are a couple of points that follow:
> 
> 1. If the Cop finds the scum Roleblocker, they should probably claim with this info right away.
> 2. Scum will always have an instinct for self-preservation, but this will be particularly marked in the case of the Roleblocker. If we get close to him/her we should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrificial.
> 3. We obviously don’t want to out our own power-roles. However, this should in no way stop us from pursuing people we find suspicious - we can’t be jumping at shadows. What I would ask is that if the Doc or Cop find themselves getting votes, they try to argue their way out of it before reaching for the claim option. Obviously however, the important thing is to stay alive.

There are some things that I disagree with about this post.

1. The cop can’t start building a masonry once the roleblocker is dead. There is a scum godfather. Until the godfather is confirmed dead, the cop can’t confirm a single player. And those players who investigated town won’t be confirmed until the cop is dead.

2. You’re attempting to lay out policy for roles which may not be yours. Policies are bad (worse if you’re declaring your own policy). They can be gamed/ accounted for in scum planning. This particular policy means that if the scum lose their roleblocker, then all they have to do at most is sac a vanilla to learn who the cop is. A risky strategy on their part, but one that could pay off.

3. Scum don’t need to kill the cop or doc to win. They are but two out of 16 (15 town) targets. Lets not plan a whole strategy centered around \< 1/8 of the town.

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**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/192 "2009-12-07T15:10:22Z")

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> [@pedescribe](#):
>
> Yes, but you are still completely missing the point, that being that the accusation “seemingly innocent, potentially smearing inferences” is so vague and broad as to be useless, and certainly not good enough for a vote.

Many a Day 1 vote has come for reasons even more vague and more broad.

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**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/193 "2009-12-07T15:21:39Z")

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> [@peekercpa](#):
>
> where in the world did i say anything about lynching a miller?

> [@peekercpa](#):
>
> sersiously if someone goes down the miller discussion route they swing just on principle.

Yeah, I get now that you were using it as an example, but I guess I didn’t realize that. And in any event, I was AGREEING with you. I do think that if someone tries to come up with some bizarre scenario, we should lynch them.

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**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/194 "2009-12-07T16:11:32Z")

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I hate Day 1 - I really really suck at finding anyone at all suspicious. I’ll say that

(1) **peeker** seems to be being peeker, and

(2) I’ve seen **Freudian** mislynched in the past (Lost mafia, I think) for reacting too strongly to an aggressive player, so I’m not being pinged by her, either.

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**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/195 "2009-12-07T16:22:54Z")

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> [@Red\_Skeezix](#):
>
> There are some things that I disagree with about this post.
> 
> 1. The cop can’t start building a masonry once the roleblocker is dead. There is a scum godfather. Until the godfather is confirmed dead, the cop can’t confirm a single player. And those players who investigated town won’t be confirmed until the cop is dead.
> 
> 2. You’re attempting to lay out policy for roles which may not be yours. Policies are bad (worse if you’re declaring your own policy). They can be gamed/ accounted for in scum planning. This particular policy means that if the scum lose their roleblocker, then all they have to do at most is sac a vanilla to learn who the cop is. A risky strategy on their part, but one that could pay off.
> 
> 3. Scum don’t need to kill the cop or doc to win. They are but two out of 16 (15 town) targets. Lets not plan a whole strategy centered around \< 1/8 of the town.

1. Yes, I know there’s an Alpha. But even so, being able to set aside, say, 4 players, one of whom _at best_ is scum is a very powerful position for the town to be in. That’s why the Cop role is so valuable.

2. There can be drawbacks to having a rigid, public policy, I agree. It’s also true that in some circumstances publicly declaring your policy can have the effect of constraining your opponents. (E.g. lie down in front of a bulldozer, and it might keep coming and call your bluff. Handcuff yourself to some handy railings then swallow the key, and the bulldozer stops.) If we get to the point where the best strategy for scum is to sacrifice one of their 3 remaining players, I’ll be perfectly happy. More to the point, as I have no ability to enforce this policy on the town, I’m not too worried that I’m painting us into any kind of corner.

3. We’ll win the game based on our collective ability to find scum, which we’ll do with analysis and conversation and not by relying on town power roles. I’m a big believer that the most powerful role in the game is vanilla town. That said, if we get to the end-game (say, 6 players living) with a Cop, a Doc and no Scum role-blocker, then the scum will have to play a damn fine game to win.

As far as strategy goes, there are limits to how sophisticated we can be. But on Day One it’s worth having a discussion about what roles we’re playing with/against and how they interact. More to the point, I think there’s quite a lot of value in trying to work out what scum strategies might be. It gives us pointers to the kind of behaviour to look for, and takes back some of the initiative that they enjoy. And if, by doing that, we constrain them from following certain strategies, so much the better.

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**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/196 "2009-12-07T16:52:53Z")

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I haven’t seen anyone speaking about it, but for once we have a chance of actually implementing this: the Vigilante should seriously consider not using his power, at least for a couple of Nights. It’s very, very likely (s)he will hit town and right now our main advantage lies in numbers.

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**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/197 "2009-12-07T16:57:42Z")

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> [@DiggitCamara](#):
>
> I haven’t seen anyone speaking about it, but for once we have a chance of actually implementing this: the Vigilante should seriously consider not using his power, at least for a couple of Nights. It’s very, very likely (s)he will hit town and right now our main advantage lies in numbers.

There was a bit of discussion, though it got sidetracked onto the roleblocker. I’m with you as far as Night 1 goes (though I’m sure there could be circumstances that justified a vigging - Vig, make your own decisions!); from Night 2 on, I’d say the vig is probably a net plus.

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**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/198 "2009-12-07T17:07:13Z")

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> [@Tom\_Scud](#):
>
> There was a bit of discussion, though it got sidetracked onto the roleblocker. I’m with you as far as Night 1 goes (though I’m sure there could be circumstances that justified a vigging - Vig, make your own decisions!); from Night 2 on, I’d say the vig is probably a net plus.

I think the “starting gun” for the Vig should probably be far later than that.

1. There has to be an acceptable ratio of town to scum so (s)he won’t risk hitting town too often
2. The Vig’s action could be helped by the Cop’s information. The Cop shouldn’t identify her/himself unless (s)he has enough data to make it worthwhile. Like **storyteller** surely will tell us, the Cop’s value lies in confirming folk rather than in unearthing scum. And even there his/her role increases in value as the Night’s pass.

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**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/199 "2009-12-07T17:16:14Z")

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> [@amrussell](#):
>
> 1. Scum will always have an instinct for self-preservation, but this will be particularly marked in the case of the Roleblocker. If we get close to him/her we should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrificial.

I’m having trouble parsing this. If Town gets close to the Scum roleblocker, Town should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrifical? How does Town do that? The only way that this makes sense if Scum is doing the team defending to protect their valuable role, and it concerns me that you would use “we” there to describe that. Maybe I’m just reading it wrong, though–what did you mean by it?

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**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\
**Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/200 "2009-12-07T17:17:13Z")

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> [@Tom\_Scud](#):
>
> There was a bit of discussion, though it got sidetracked onto the roleblocker. I’m with you as far as Night 1 goes (though I’m sure there could be circumstances that justified a vigging - Vig, make your own decisions!); from Night 2 on, I’d say the vig is probably a net plus.

> [@DiggitCamara](#):
>
> I think the “starting gun” for the Vig should probably be far later than that.
> 
> 1. There has to be an acceptable ratio of town to scum so (s)he won’t risk hitting town too often
> 2. The Vig’s action could be helped by the Cop’s information. The Cop shouldn’t identify her/himself unless (s)he has enough data to make it worthwhile. Like **storyteller** surely will tell us, the Cop’s value lies in confirming folk rather than in unearthing scum. And even there his/her role increases in value as the Night’s pass.

I haven’t gone deep into this, but I’m thinking that by Night 2, there will probably be 4 Town down - there might be a lucky kill or lynch of a scum or SK, but it’s not the way to bet. There will also be enough information from 2 days’ discussion & lynches to give the Vig a better-than-random sense of where to shoot. And knocking out a most-suspicious-Townie has some value as well, as it will help avoid a mislynch the following day.

Anyway, it does depend on how the lynches and discussion on Day 1 and 2 go; if the vig honestly doesn’t have a decent suspect on Night 2 they might be better off not shooting then either.

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