# Colorless Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729 "2009-12-02T18:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/201 "2009-12-07T17:26:34Z")
Do we definitely know there’s a serial killer in the game? > [@special\_ed](#): > > Before the game begins, I will inform you if each of these roles are in the game and how many of each role is in the game. I will only include a Serial Killer if we have more than 16 players. An SK is listed in the list of roles and **ed** said we’d only have one if we had more than sixteen players which we do. Does that mean we MIGHT have one or that we do have one? ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/202 "2009-12-07T17:30:16Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Do we definitely know there’s a serial killer in the game? > > An SK is listed in the list of roles and **ed** said we’d only have one if we had more than sixteen players which we do. Does that mean we MIGHT have one or that we do have one? I suppose the listing of the role PMs in post [#67](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11854684&postcount=67) means that there is a SK. The numbers add up: 11 VT 1 Doc 1 Cop 1 Vig 1 town Roleblocker 1 alpha 2 goons 1 scum roleblocker 1 SK ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/203 "2009-12-07T17:30:35Z")
I think since we have more than 16 players, he included one. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/204 "2009-12-07T17:31:08Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Do we definitely know there’s a serial killer in the game? > > An SK is listed in the list of roles and **ed** said we’d only have one if we had more than sixteen players which we do. Does that mean we MIGHT have one or that we do have one? We definitely know there’s a SK in the game. Everyone should go re-read [post #67](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11854684&postcount=67), the setup post, which lists all the roles, how many of each role there is (so that we know there are exactly 4 scum), and a few other rules (eg. an explicit ban on night-time strategy talk, a specific affirmation that a roleblock will stop a night kill, and a few other things) that could be handy to know. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/205 "2009-12-07T17:32:13Z")
I read post 67 but couldn’t that be interpreted as these are the possible roles? Then again, maybe I’m too much in the gastard state of mind. If this is a colorless normal game, I doubt the mods are going to be too evil…right? …Right? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/206 "2009-12-07T17:32:51Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Many a Day 1 vote has come for reasons even more vague and more broad. That’s true. But that doesn’t make your vote a good vote. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/207 "2009-12-07T17:35:05Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I read post 67 but couldn’t that be interpreted as these are the possible roles? Then again, maybe I’m too much in the gastard state of mind. If this is a colorless normal game, I doubt the mods are going to be too evil…right? …Right? He mentioned during signups that he would tell us specifically which roles were in the game, and how many of them there were. Also, as Guiri pointed out, the number of roles in 67 add up to 20. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/208 "2009-12-07T17:35:36Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I’m having trouble parsing this. If Town gets close to the Scum roleblocker, Town should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrifical? How does Town do that? The only way that this makes sense if Scum is doing the team defending to protect their valuable role, and it concerns me that you would use “we” there to describe that. Maybe I’m just reading it wrong, though–what did you mean by it? Whoa–I didn’t even notice that first time around. Call me hasty, but that’s good enough for a vote from me. **Vote Amrussell** ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/209 "2009-12-07T17:36:46Z")
Also, on the topic of roles 'n stuff: **Mods: have you been/are you being/are you going to be evil or gastardly?** Knot, meet knife. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/210 "2009-12-07T17:44:56Z")
> [@amrussell](#): > > 1. Scum will always have an instinct for self-preservation, but this will be particularly marked in the case of the Roleblocker. If we get close to him/her we should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrificial. > [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I’m having trouble parsing this. If Town gets close to the Scum roleblocker, Town should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrifical? How does Town do that? The only way that this makes sense if Scum is doing the team defending to protect their valuable role, and it concerns me that you would use “we” there to describe that. Maybe I’m just reading it wrong, though–what did you mean by it? > [@pedescribe](#): > > Whoa–I didn’t even notice that first time around. Call me hasty, but that’s good enough for a vote from me. Right. This is silly. As I read it, the contention is that Town (“we”) could provoke a team defense, simply by suspecting, possibly for completely stupid reasons, the Roleblocker of being scum and voting to lynch said roleblocker (“getting close to him/her”). This would most likely (“should”) lead to (“provoke”) the scum engaging in some sort of team defense of the roleblocker, possibly by sacrificing a scum Goon. The quoted sentence by **amrussell** makes absolutely no sense if you parse “we” as “Scum”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/211 "2009-12-07T17:47:11Z")
NETA: the misunderstanding there I think is from Drain Bead reading “should” as “must”, when in this case it makes more sense as “most likely will”. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/212 "2009-12-07T17:47:53Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Also, on the topic of roles 'n stuff: > > **Mods: have you been/are you being/are you going to be evil or gastardly?** > > Knot, meet knife. No gastardy. The set-up couldn’t be more simple. What you see is what you get. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/213 "2009-12-07T17:49:12Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I read post 67 but couldn’t that be interpreted as these are the possible roles? Then again, maybe I’m too much in the gastard state of mind. If this is a colorless normal game, I doubt the mods are going to be too evil…right? …Right? The roles listed in post 67 are the roles in the game. There are 11 Vanilla Town and 2 Scum Goons. Every other role exists only once. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/214 "2009-12-07T18:24:50Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > NETA: the misunderstanding there I think is from Drain Bead reading “should” as “must”, when in this case it makes more sense as “most likely will”. Looking at your parsing, I understand now. I think “should” probably was meant to be “could”–it makes much more sense that way. This is why I wasn’t quick to vote, because I figured I was probably reading it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/215 "2009-12-07T18:30:12Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Looking at your parsing, I understand now. I think “should” probably was meant to be “could”–it makes much more sense that way. This is why I wasn’t quick to vote, because I figured I was probably reading it wrong. It’s a perfectly cromulent use of “should”, and implies a slightly stronger expectation that the event will happen as outlined than “could” does. eg “If we don’t hit any more traffic, we should be home by dinner.” ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/216 "2009-12-07T18:45:01Z")
Makes sense to me. This is why I don’t rush into a vote for a “slip”. Most of the time stuff like that is wrong anyway–I think I’ve seen it work exactly twice, and once was on me when _I_ was a first-time Scum and my fellow scummate totally bussed me for cred. Hell, we need only look back to Screamers, when I was _certain_ you were Scum when Chronos came up in red. Now **pedescribe** , on the other hand…not sure what to think about that rush to judgment. I went back and looked at his posts with a fine-toothed comb after that, and he seems pretty Townie, but that leap seemed unnecessary at that time, when **amrussell** hadn’t even defended himself yet. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/217 "2009-12-07T19:20:09Z")
**Drain Bead** ’s mistake seems simple enough. But I thought **pedescribe** ’s reaction seemed a bit quick to judge, too. Then again, this could just be because there’s really nothing to go on at this point and he wanted to say something even if it was really off/random. ---
**Author:** ![Rin\_Twisted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Rin\_Twisted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rin_Twisted)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/218 "2009-12-07T19:25:58Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > /Snipped > While I agree that these discussions may not help us find the scum and SK, I’m not sure what else we can talk about so early in the game. You talk about players actions, how they respond to certain situations. That’s why votes shouldn’t be hoarded, they’re useful for seeing player reactions. > [@](#): > > At least the comments and counter-arguments on roles ([#114](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11856209&postcount=114)), strategy ([#91](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11855317&postcount=91)) and game mechanics ([#129](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11856600&postcount=129)) help us newbies (or at least newbies to an open setup) to have a clearer understanding of what to expect in this game. At the risk of sounding paranoid with a tin foil hat on, that’s what they want you to think! That’s NOT a clear understanding of what to expect in a mafia game. That kind of stuff is a) put forth by newbies who are thinking along the lines you are or b) started and encouraged by scum who know it’s dragging the game off track. Let me put this another way: in three days, we lynch someone. Right now it’s pedescribe. Are you confident he’s the right choice? If so, you should be voting for him. If not, you should be finding a better choice. With that in mind… > [@amrussell](#): > > Confirming, somewhat belatedly. > > 1. Scum will always have an instinct for self-preservation, but this will be particularly marked in the case of the Roleblocker. If we get close to him/her we should provoke some sort of team defense, possibly sacrificial. I want to say upfront that I don’t think amrussell had a ‘slip’ with ‘we’ or anything like that. I think it’s pretty clear the ‘we’ means town, even. But these posts are pinging my radar. Here’s another one I don’t like: > [@](#): > > If we get to the point where the best strategy for scum is to sacrifice one of their 3 remaining players, I’ll be perfectly happy. More to the point, as I have no ability to enforce this policy on the town, I’m not too worried that I’m painting us into any kind of corner. This was a day start game, and that means scum didn’t have any chance to talk to one another and form some plans before the game started. This reads to me as possible attempts at subtle direction of the troops, so to speak. **Vote amrussell** > [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Now **pedescribe** , on the other hand…not sure what to think about that rush to judgment. I went back and looked at his posts with a fine-toothed comb after that, and he seems pretty Townie, but that leap seemed unnecessary at that time, when **amrussell** hadn’t even defended himself yet. I don’t know. It is his head on the chopping block. I don’t find his swift vote suspicious, but I don’t know if I trust his motivations behind it. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/219 "2009-12-07T19:29:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I haven’t gone deep into this, but I’m thinking that by Night 2, there will probably be 4 Town down - there might be a lucky kill or lynch of a scum or SK, but it’s not the way to bet. There will also be enough information from 2 days’ discussion & lynches to give the Vig a better-than-random sense of where to shoot. And knocking out a most-suspicious-Townie has some value as well, as it will help avoid a mislynch the following day. Also in my experience, we’re likely to have at least one power role claim in the first couple of days which will further narrow down the list for cop, vig, SK and doc, depending on if they believe the claim or not ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/220 "2009-12-07T19:30:01Z")
> [@Rin\_Twisted](#): > > This was a day start game, and that means scum didn’t have any chance to talk to one another and form some plans before the game started. This reads to me as possible attempts at subtle direction of the troops, so to speak. **Vote amrussell** Do we know that for certain? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=12)