# Colorless Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729 "2009-12-02T18:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/381 "2009-12-10T06:16:00Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m still thinking about it. But it’s such a cliche. Person is about to die, they pull out a power role, **and most of the time they’re lying**. What are the odds we actually are about to lynch the vig? I disagree with your assessment that most of the time they are lying. The only people who lie on the threat of lynch IME are scum and PFK. If he’s scum or SK, he’ll die for it, either the vig will get him eventually or the vig will get killed and we’ll know he’s lying and we’ll lynch him. If he actually is the vig, he probably will be roleblocked or killed by scum. This effectively makes the problem between pede, scum/SK, and a possible vig (if he’s lying). IMO, Town should not waste a lynch on him at this point. The straight odds are low that he’s telling the truth (I figure 1 of 6), but why should town bother to lynch him? I would even go as far to say that the cop shouldn’t even waste an investigation on him (due to godfather). Again IMO, his claim makes him not town’s problem until someone is forced to counter-claim him or the real vig ends up dead and confirmed. Then, it is town’s duty to lynch his ass since he will be undeniably not town. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/382 "2009-12-10T06:16:53Z")
NETA: I was thinking of pulling my vote off you, but naw, it feels good where it is. Remember, **Freudian** , this is an open setup. We have a LOT of tools to deal with false claims without having to lynch them immediately, which means we have a plethora of reasons to generally trust claims until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/383 "2009-12-10T06:22:33Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > Again IMO, his claim makes him not town’s problem until someone is forced to counter-claim him or the real vig ends up dead and confirmed. Then, it is town’s duty to lynch his ass since he will be undeniably not town. NETA: My words are not quite what I meant: in the case that someone counter-claims him, we will have to evaluate the claims and then may end up lynching both. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/384 "2009-12-10T07:16:08Z")
**Unvote pede**. Let’s see what happens next. And we pick on you in the playground because we like you, **pede** Hopefully some votes will get us some signs of life. **Vote Ichini** ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/385 "2009-12-10T07:47:45Z")
**Unvote Pedescribe** For now I’d like to see what the rest of Town thinks we should do. It’s funny that we just had a big discussion on what we should do in the event of a Vig claim… If **Pedescribe** is the real Vig and there’s no counterclaim, the Doc will probably protect him and scum will role-block him so he’s basically VT at the moment, right? If he’s not the real Vig, without a counter-claim, the Doc will likely still protect him so he can’t be “dealt with”" by the SK, scum or the real Vig - so he’s basically safe till the real vig flips. If he’s not the real Vig and there is a counter-claim, the Doc will have to decide which of the two claimants is townier, protect that person who, if the true Vig, will probably be roleblocked, while the less convincing claimant either gets lynched or NK’d by the SK. If I’m looking at this correctly, it all boils down to whether our Doc buys **Pedescribe** ’s claim and is willing to protect him or let the scum, SK or real Vig deal with him in their own way. FWIW, I don’t think his play style has been consistent with a Townie protecting a very important power role and I’m not sure what to make of the fact the he was the first to give “advice” to the Vig (#82). Isn’t that exactly what you’re NOT supposed to do? ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/386 "2009-12-10T12:38:59Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m still thinking about it. But it’s such a cliche. Person is about to die, they pull out a power role, and most of the time they’re lying. What are the odds we actually are about to lynch the vig? Can you point me towards an open setup game where most of the role claims were lying? **vote Freudian** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/387 "2009-12-10T12:40:50Z")
[quote=“special\_ed, post:375, topic:519729”] **Vote Count** with about 13 hours and 19 minutes to go 12 Votes required to start Countdown. (peak vote in Parentheses) **4 Votes** \ ***Freduian Slit** (3 #378) Zeriel (230), Drain Bead (298), Red Skeezix (378), USCDiver (386) **3 Votes** **Pedescribe** (6 #330) ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (86 384), Tom Scud (282 334), Freudian Slit (288), peekercpa (308), Mental Guy (318 377), GuiriEnEspaña (330 385), Mahaloth (370) **2 Votes** **peekercpa** (2 #326) pedescribe (307), DiggitCamara (326) **Rin Twisted** (2 #358) storyteller0910 (290) ToeJam (358) **1 Vote** **amrussell** (2 #218) Pedescribe (208 235), Rin Twisted (218), ToeJam (272 320) **Mahaloth** (1 #135) peekercpa (135 308) Tom Scud (334) Ichini Sanshigo (1 #384) ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (384) **0 Votes** **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** (1 #315) Red Skeezix (315 378) \ ***Lynch Leader** **Not Voting** : Nanook, Ichini Sanshigo, MHaye, amrussel, Mental Guy, GuiriEnEspaña ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/388 "2009-12-10T12:58:10Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I never said it was one of my first games. I’ve played about four or five games in the past. So more than some, fewer than others. I don’t always play this way, no, but I haven’t ever played with **peeker** for example, and I’ve never really been called out for, IMHO, stuff that’s fairly innocuous. Plus, coupled with a lot of off board crap I"ve been dealing with–that’s basically why I was acting as I did. /Underlining mine for emphasis. @ **Freudian** , while you did disappear in Day 2, you were in Screamers with **Peeker** , weren’t you? I remember you two exchanged greetings in Bulgarian. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/389 "2009-12-10T13:04:04Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > :kneads brow: > > Every single game, it seems like! Have I not been in hot water day one?! Ever?! > > Whatever. Since there’s only, like, a day left in the Day, I’m coming out now. > > **I’m the vigilante.** well i can only suspect some things but at least in this game i know with 100 percent certainly that this is a lie. now i know that there was some discussion about what do with a false claiming vig. and to be honest with you i can see both points. having said that since i know without a doubt that **ped** is scum or sk lynching anyone else is not the percentage play. lynch **ped** , he is not the vig. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/390 "2009-12-10T13:05:44Z")
oh, and for those that accuse me of being indirect let me be very clear. i am the vig. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/391 "2009-12-10T13:06:51Z")
and i want to get this out there so we still have a little time to talk about some other folks in a strategy setting before we go to Night. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/392 "2009-12-10T13:25:04Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > Thats a false dichotomy if i’ve ever seen one. > > Also, Cookies, you threw out that first vote what I consider to be quite early. Justification for the vote: Other votes have been broader and rested on less suspicion. > > Since then you’ve sat back and relaxed and thrown out a few innocuous comments as **town** has been gutting each other all day. It’s exactly the kind of thing scum strives for on day 1. A whole lot of chaos that’s fallout only lands on **townies**. > > **[COLOR"Blue"]vote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies[COLOR]** > [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > \ > > WHAT?!?! You accuse **peeker** of deliberately misquoting you, then in the same post commit the same??? I mean I don’t agree with **Guiri’s** reasons, but you can’t just leave them out of a quote, and then accuse the poster of laziness. > > In other news, I still think **Cookies** is pretty scummy, and I don’t think anyone suggested that I not be scrutinized. :dubious: Where did that notion enter your head? \ \ these two posts bother me. in the first one **skeez** seems to really be stretching for a reason for his vote. also, why so sure that what is going on is town on town disagreement or “gutting”. that sure smacks of knowing something. also, in the second post he kind of zings **ped** but not enough to justify a vote but merely reiterates his suspicion of **cookies**. sure smells like a nice way to establish some cred without actually pushing a teamie closer to lynch. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/393 "2009-12-10T13:36:48Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > oh, and for those that accuse me of being indirect let me be very clear. > > i am the vig. **unvote Mahaloth** **vote pedescribe** I see no reason why a scum **peeker** would make such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/394 "2009-12-10T13:44:35Z")
OK, here are the possibilities: 1. Pedescribe is the vig; peekercpa is lying I can’t think of any reason why this would be true. The only goal peeker can have for making his claim is to get pedescribe killed one way or another: if pedescribe flipped vig, we’d insta-lynch peeker, no question. 1. Pedescribe is scum/SK; peekercpa is lying This would be an exceptionally bold gambit to win townie-cred when pedescribe flips \*\*except \*\*that the real vig would still be out there, and would off peeker. So this is also highly unlikely. (Or peeker’s reading this right now thinking “Damn, I knew there was something I forgot.”) 1. Pedescribe is scum/SK; peekercpa is the vig This by elimination is the most likely possibility. The good news is that we get lynch a non-town. The bad news is that our vig is at best going to be continually role-blocked at least until the scum flush another power-role. That’s not the worst thing in the world - the chances that given freedom to act he’d have hit a scum were always low, and this way he get’s a definite kill. **vote pedescribe** ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/395 "2009-12-10T13:48:06Z")
So we know either **peeker** or **pedescribe** is lying. And it seems like it would be pointless for **peeker** to counterclaim right now, as he’s not getting any major heat, and would surely end up dead toMorrow if he’s lying. So between the two, doubtless the liar is **pedescribe**. So **pedescribe** is either Scum or the SK. Either way, he should die toDay–no need to potentially lynch a Townie and have to set up some convoluted combination of roleblocking and vigging toNight, when we have a Scum or PFK in our sights. **unvote Freudian** **vote pedescribe** This is not to say that I am not still VERY suspicious of **Freudian** , especially given how she reacted after **pedescribe** ’s claim. I’m not sure how many open setup games **Freudian** has played in–maybe she’s used to the mechanics of a closed setup and is having trouble wrapping her mind around the fact that we all have absolute knowledge of all roles in the game. But it doesn’t seem hard to refer to post 67 as the game’s Bible and realize that if **pedescribe** was not the Vig, a counterclaim or a Night vigging was surely coming. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/396 "2009-12-10T13:49:55Z")
That second sentence should read “And it seems like it would be pointless for **peeker** to counterclaim right now as Scum/SK…” ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/397 "2009-12-10T14:11:00Z")
I have to agree with everyone else, I think it would be pointless for peeker to be lying right now, so **Vote pedescribe** I was actually planning on voting for Freudian for the reasons Red and USCDiver were but it looks as if we have definitely caught a scum or the SK. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/398 "2009-12-10T14:11:06Z")
WTF peeker! \*\*unvote Freudian vote pedescribe \*\* ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/399 "2009-12-10T14:23:19Z")
Right, that’s decided then. **Vote Pedescribe** The claim doesn’t match his play and now **Peeker** ’s counter-claimed, I can add these reasons to my previous ones and place a definitive vote. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/400 "2009-12-10T14:32:33Z")
Doing a post-lunch catchup before I head off and read some job adverts to see a claim-and-counterclaim scenario. Clearly one of them is lying, as illustrated by the philosopher Mark Knopfler. > [@](#): > > Two men say they’re Jesus > One of them must be wrong. > [right]Dire Straits, _Industrial Disease_[/right] Pede claimed Vig when in the lead; this could be the act of a desperate scum, but to be honest smells more like that of a serial killer to me. The SK needs to stay alive at all costs; a scum Pedescribe could hope to win even if he’s lynched Day 1. Given some of the discussion upthread, Pede might have hoped that the lynch settled on a VT, and then the Doc protect him in the absence of anyone else, or that the true Vig and scum leave him alone thinking that the Doc _might_ be protecting him. (I know I’ve seen - and followed, in games when I have been scum - that argument in the past.) Assuming for the moment that Peeker is not Town, what motive might he have for counterclaiming? Honestly? Peeker can’t positively know what Pede _is_, so he’s risking Pede flipping Town Vig, which would lead to a guaranteed Peeker lynch Tomorrow, instead of a Day where Peeker **might be** the lynch candidate. Why make a bad uncertain thing certain when you don’t have to? But there is another possibility. Pedescribe has, in the past, advocated Townspeople lying. He has even practiced actuive deceit (by which I mean he has, as a Town-aligned player, made false statements **knowing** that they were false and with the intention to mislead. Most recently he tried it on in Conspiracy 3; he was one particular investigative role but claimed to be another (briefly) in order to pull the wool over the eyes of a specific anti-Town faction, who had already checked him out and thus knew he was probably lying. His biggest lie was that he repeatedly claimed that there were four Masons in Evil Dead. It’s quite possible, then, that Pede is simply a vanilla Town trying to get out of a lynch. In which case, his lie has exposed the Vig to public scrutiny. In summary, unless Pede is actually the town Vig he’s the right lynch candidate, and if he is the town Vig we’ve got a scum (or possibly SK) lined up for tomorrow. Additionally, pedescribes past play reduces his credibility with this claim. **Vote Pedescribe**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=21)