# Colorless Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729 "2009-12-02T18:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/741 "2009-12-21T18:49:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I do agree that Tom Scud voting with Maha and then voting against him seems weird. Like, is he trying to make up for allying too heavily with him by bussing him? I’m not changing my vote JUST yet, but I’m thinking about it. The only time Mahaloth and I have had votes on the same person at the same time is **pedescribe**. **Maha** followed my logic on his vote against **Rin** , but how is that my fault? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/742 "2009-12-21T18:54:55Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > \ > So I have to ask: what’s the motivation for the switches? I would love to hear from each of the three further on each of their votes. Motivation: I felt that the comment that DC made was scummy, so I went back and read all of his posts, and felt that he was scummier than FS at that point. There’s not much more than that to my motivation for voting. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/743 "2009-12-21T18:55:42Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Wow, it feels really odd to be trying to vote for people for changing from me to DC because this whole argument is predicated on me being scum. No hard feelings. It happens. Though I know if I was the Vig or the Cop last night, I know what I would have tried to done to un-clutter the data. But yes, I’m quite curious as to where the scum are hiding. If it were me, I’d want to have someone on both sides- one on DC, one on FS, and one off into the lurkers category. Though, I personally find that “faking an absence” it is a terrible way to play and quite dishonorable- that people fake an illness or excuse for time away when they are in fact just reading the thread and choosing not to post as a strategy not a great thing (different from the person who chooses simply to avoid playing due to real life issues). Also, I’m fine with Lurking- but that means posting and staying under the radar as a scum strategy, but I find those who simply leave and don’t pay attention as silly and not a strategy- so people who post fluff and random comments are more suspicious to me than the person who doesn’t check in and post at all for 3-4 days. But that’s because I’d hope that the latter category isn’t trying to do that in as a real game strategy. That’s just… distasteful and dishonorable in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/744 "2009-12-21T18:58:07Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > 1. I am not a fan of the vote changing, and would like to hear more- could you perhaps points to your evidence of “pinging” showing that you had better musings for changing your vote? Post 564: > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’m also being pinged by **Diggit** , who has an IMO undermotivated vote for **peeker** and a handful of posts urging Town power roles not to act, in addition to the no-brainer vote for **pedescribe**. Post 594: > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’m sure the scum would never have thought to block the only revealed Town power role on their own. > > Also, what **Skeezix** said re: hypocrisy. > > Not unvoting **Freudian** just yet, but big fat **FOS**. There you go. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/745 "2009-12-21T19:01:04Z")
And my reason for switching was as described: I had become more and more doubtful as the day went on of the case for **Freudian** , who seemed to me as likely to have been a Townie skimming a lot as a Scum skimming a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/746 "2009-12-21T19:08:47Z")
Also, Toe, if you think I switched votes to save a scummy Freudian, why are you voting for me, and not Freudian? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/747 "2009-12-21T19:13:34Z")
OK, I know I’ve not been around much. I apologize for that, but it’s definitely over now. So, to business: DAY TWO IN REVIEW **Zeriel** leads off with a vote for Freudian Slit, basically citing “no change from yesterday.” **Alka Seltzer** with a vote for **Mental Guy**. Sort of a spurious vote, by the way; a few justifications are mentioned, but two are sort of vague and the third – that Mental Guy thought **ped** might be “scum or SK” – doesn’t really make sense. Why _wouldn’t_ he have thought this? **peeker** votes **skeezix**. Fair vote, and peeker is overwhelmingly likely to be Town, so no further comment on this. **Tom Scud** votes **Rin Twisted,** to prompt a response to my long-ago and far-away Day One case. **Skeezix** votes **Freudian Slit,** evidently because she is confident that **peeker** is telling the truth. I don’t get this vote at all. I am pretty damn confident that **peeker** is telling the truth. For him to be lying, the Scum would have had to have guessed both: (1) that pedescribe was lying and was really the SK; and (2) the identity of the _real_ Vig, who they then role-blocked last Night, and who nonetheless has declined to counter-claim because… uh… If the Scum hit the lottery to that extent, well, good for them. I think it profoundly unlikely, and that **skeezix** pushes **Freudian’s** entirely rational confidence in peek as a reason to vote for her – knowing that she has drawn attention in the past and may be an easy target – makes me suspicious of skeezix. I vote **Rin Twisted,** and then promptly vanish. I suck. Now **Drain Bead** votes for **Freudian,** basically because the latter didn’t see the peek-gets-guidance-from-the-Town plan as being as blindingly awful as many others. This is a terribly flawed vote. For crying out loud, how does not agreeing with the consensus equate to Scummy? I mean, the idea came from peeker himself, who is (we are more or less sure) Town. Was it Scummy when he proposed it? (Answering own question): Of course not! So why does it suddenly become Scummy when Freudian doesn’t see the downside as clearly as others? So we’re rolling along, and **Alka Seltzer** is still pushing his theory that **Mental Guy’s** suggestion that ped might be the SK is some sort of Scum slip. **Skeezix** sort-of endorses this. Why? This makes no sense. We knew there to be an SK; we knew (s)he would lie about his/her identity. Why, when we noted that a player was lying about their identity, would we not consider the SK possibility? **Tom Scud,** at #561, makes another basically content-free vote for **Freudian.** At this point, this **Freudian** thing officially looks weird as hell to me. The reasoning underlying these votes is overwhelmingly of the “could mean Town or Scum, but I think it’s Scum” variety. The initial reason for all of this – that Freudian saw peeker talking about a miller and got confused – isn’t a tell for freaking _anything._ This is ridiculous. Got the rest of Day Two to get through, but an observation first: **I don’t know whether Freudian Slit is Town or Scum. I have no particular reason to think she is Scum, other than possibly Zeriel’s death (if she is Scum, his content-free vote for her leading off Day Two may have led Scum to think he might be the Cop). But either way I’ll bet my lunch money for today that at least one of the three non-Zeriel voters for Freudian as of post #561 is Scum (so that’s Skeezix, Drain Bead, and Tom Scud).** ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/748 "2009-12-21T19:14:50Z")
**GuiriinEspana** piles on to **Freudian,** and this is like reading a novel, because since I wasn’t around I don’t know how we got from five votes on Freudian to lynching someone other than Freudian. Fascinating. **Mahaloth** votes for **Rin Twisted** at #571, following on my reasoning. OK. I guess. In this post, he basically admits to lurking of the bad kind (reading and following and not plagued by IRL concerns, but not contributing much of substance), then makes a pretty nonsubstantive post. We spend so many times talking about lynching low volume posters, and usually I think it’s crap because IRL stuff happens to everyone, but here’s Mahaloth just flat-out saying he’s lurking intentionally and we’re all OK with that? **USCDiver** again with the vote for **Freudian**. Basically the argument here seems to be that refusing to unvote out of general principles following a role-claim is Scummy. All I can say is, I am glad this attitude exists, because it allowed me to coast for four Days on a bullshit Cop claim back in that all-vanilla game long ago. Now **Mental Guy** for **Freudian** , again. Same basic reason. Doesn’t make sense. Why would Scum continue to push on a Town power role? Augh. **Alka Seltzer** unvotes **MG** and votes **skeezix** , and honestly the argument here is confusing and I’m trying to preserve the through-line, so I’ll come back to this at a later date. The swing to **Diggit** begins at #593. **Diggit** urges everyone not to pick apart the potential strategy for Scum voters, **Skeezix** thinks this is inconsistent with Diggit’s own strategy musings (and it is). Tom Scud likes this argument but doesn’t switch over yet. **peeker** (our confirmed Town) joins in on the Diggit train (basically because Diggit came after peeker Day One. This is a bad reason to vote. Where’s MHaye?). Oh! There he is, voting for **Diggit** because he disagrees with him on strategy. I really, really, really thought we were past doing that. Meeko points this out at #618. He then votes skeezix, and I need to warm up to reading Meeko posts (welcome aboard, Meeko!) so I’m letting this one go for now. NOW **Tom** bails on **Freudian** , at #633. He says this: > [@](#): > > I’ve been a bit uncomfortable with my Freudian vote, and various people have put my discomfort into words lately: she seems to be skimming and acting defensive, but still seems more to me like a Townie playing a poor game than a Scum. Below is what he had to say when he voted for **Freudian** in the first place: > [@](#): > > You know, I really wasn’t on the Freudian wagon before, but reading through it all at once, she really does look like someone who was skimming, got caught, and got over-defensive about it. Which admittedly, could also happen to a Town player, but it sure does smell scummy. That’s quite a shift, there, Tom! From “sure does smell scummy” to “more like a Townie playing a poor game than a Scum” in the space of not even 100 posts, and coincidentally happening right when the tide appears to be shifting from Freudian toward Diggit? And guess where Tom’s vote is going? You guessed it! Diggit! Freudian places an awful defensive vote for Diggit (#640). Awful, awful, awful. THIS post makes me want to vote for her. A huge reach interpreting Diggit’s posts in a way that just happens to make him votable at a time when she herself is on the block. Cookies votes Diggit, fishing for a claim. Really weird. Now, at #653, **Mental Guy** pulls the same, “oh, well, looking back, Freudian seems more like frustrated Town than Scum, and I’m’a vote for Diggit, too!” And he does. An Alka Seltzer vote for Freudian, and that’s the Day. Diggit dead. Analysis to follow in Part the Third. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/749 "2009-12-21T19:17:23Z")
If we assume for the moment that both **Diggit** and **Freudian** are Town, the vote analysis is not going to tell us much, but I do think it is a healthy and productive line of thought, but if that is the case then the scum are camouflaged in the vote distribution as a result. The reactive instinct in me is to have a little chat with **Freudian** questioning how she could perceive my vote for Diggit as trying to fly under the radar to jump on the bandwagon when it created a tie, and that tie was even called out and questioned by another player. Then there’s the little chat I’d have about skimming the more substantive posts of mine around the post that contained my vote. But I still find myself willing to keep giving her some slack. I’m going to go back and look hard at Alka again and see if my suspicions from yesterday have grown or faded. As for the lurking/missing crew, please come play. Don’t be a scummy coward, and if you are a Townie we could really use your fresh perspectives as well as reasons not to think you are a scummy coward. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/750 "2009-12-21T19:19:30Z")
Oy vey run on sentences. The “but I think it is a healthy and productive line of thought” was referring to the vote distribution analysis in case that wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/751 "2009-12-21T19:23:19Z")
OK, some thoughts and a vote. 1. Much of what happened yesterDay centers on **Freudian Slit**. There were a lot of terrible votes for her, and then two players who shifted very opportunistically when a new candidate seemed a likely target (Tom Scud and Mental Guy). She herself made a terrible vote for **Diggit**. I really don’t have a solid read on **Freudian** herself beyond that, and beyond the possibility that Zeriel got killed because he was right about Freudian and the Scum suspected him of being the Cop. But neither of those things is especially damning. I just don’t know. 2. **Tom Scud’s** change of heart from #561 to #633 is weird and makes me suspicious. I now see that someone else has already posted this basic argument, so that makes some of my lengthy posts seem a bit redundant, but nonetheless. I can theorize that the Scum thought, after Day One, that Freudian was a good candidate to hang and figured they’d get in there early and avoid being bandwagoners (this would be a good approach for Scum whatever Freudian’s alignment). When the tide swung toward Diggit a bit, the Scum jumped - either to save a fellow Scum (the Freudian = Scum theory) or to leap off a probable vanilla (as far as I can tell, Freudian has not claimed, but I suspect she would have if she were a power role) and go for a possible power role in Diggit. **vote Tom Scud** , by the way. 1. I didn’t like **Alka Seltzer’s** reasoning behind his pursuit of **Mental Guy** , but I’m not really prepared to call it Scummy right now. 2. It definitely bothers me that **Mahaloth** admitted to outright lurking and has not been called on it. He’s lurking. On purpose. And he said so in his own post. That’s all for now. Sorry again for my absence, which was rooted in real-life crap. I expect to be fully participatory from here on out. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/752 "2009-12-21T19:24:24Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > **Tom Scud,** at #561, makes another basically content-free vote for **Freudian.** At this point, this **Freudian** thing officially looks weird as hell to me. The reasoning underlying these votes is overwhelmingly of the “could mean Town or Scum, but I think it’s Scum” variety. The initial reason for all of this – that Freudian saw peeker talking about a miller and got confused – isn’t a tell for freaking _anything._ This is ridiculous. Um. She’s been skimming all over the place - 201 & 205 about the serial killer (did she read #67? not so carefully…), 299 about the hammer vote (#67 again). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/753 "2009-12-21T19:27:53Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Um. She’s been skimming all over the place - 201 & 205 about the serial killer (did she read #67? not so carefully…), 299 about the hammer vote (#67 again). That wasn’t skimming, dude–I just honestly didn’t know if all those would be in the game. Last game I played was predicated on weird wording so I was being extra careful here. And I have no clue what a hammer vote is, you’ll have to enlighten me there. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/754 "2009-12-21T19:29:00Z")
About whether 11 or 12 votes were required to bring the end-of-day forward. The answer to which was again spelled out in #67. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/755 "2009-12-21T19:32:41Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > About whether 11 or 12 votes were required to bring the end-of-day forward. The answer to which was again spelled out in #67. Okay, so I missed ONE post. I can’t read every single post in detail–either I can ask a question, or I can try to read the whole thread every time I’m confused. I am reading the thread and participating which is a lot more than a lot of the lurkers have done. These all just seem like such weak points to me, no offense. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/756 "2009-12-21T19:34:43Z")
You’ve definitely been posting like you are skimming, **Freudian** and you have a very snarky retort for anyone who calls you on it, which has been often. Yesterday you eye-rolled me for pointing it out when I wasn’t even voting for you, and have yet to vote for you. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/757 "2009-12-21T19:59:36Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Okay, so I missed ONE post. I can’t read every single post in detail–either I can ask a question, or I can try to read the whole thread every time I’m confused. I am reading the thread and participating which is a lot more than a lot of the lurkers have done. These all just seem like such weak points to me, no offense. Well, you made yet another skim, just today. > [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > The whole exchange between **Tom Scud** and **Mahaloth** smells fishy. First today they are both voting for lurkers. Now **Tom Scud** is voting for **Mahaloth** for voting lurker. What’s the deal **Tom Scud**? (both voting for lurkers. But. DIFFERENT lurkers. As would be clear to anyone who wasn’t, you know, skimming.) > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I do agree that Tom Scud voting with Maha and then voting against him seems weird. Like, is he trying to make up for allying too heavily with him by bussing him? I’m not changing my vote JUST yet, but I’m thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/758 "2009-12-21T20:13:12Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Now **Drain Bead** votes for **Freudian,** basically because the latter didn’t see the peek-gets-guidance-from-the-Town plan as being as blindingly awful as many others. This is a terribly flawed vote. For crying out loud, how does not agreeing with the consensus equate to Scummy? I mean, the idea came from peeker himself, who is (we are more or less sure) Town. Was it Scummy when he proposed it? (Answering own question): Of course not! So why does it suddenly become Scummy when Freudian doesn’t see the downside as clearly as others? Of course it wasn’t scummy when he proposed it–it was just misguided and not fully thought through. Once I explained the flaws with it, **Freudian** then immediately tried to DEFEND it. _That’s_ what I saw as being scummy–I clearly spelled out the downside of the idea, to the point of saying that Scum would be salivating to get us all to agree to it, and then in pops **Freudian** essentially saying “Hey, wait, it isn’t all that bad!” Combine that with the reasons why I voted her on the first Day (skimming, overdefensiveness), and she gave me absolutely no reason to change my mind. Once the downside was shown to her, the only reason to defend that idea was because it benefits her in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/759 "2009-12-21T21:15:22Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Oh! There he is, voting for **Diggit** because he disagrees with him on strategy. I really, really, really thought we were past doing that. Meeko points this out at #618. He then votes skeezix, and I need to warm up to reading Meeko posts (welcome aboard, Meeko!) so I’m letting this one go for now. Warm up to reading my posts? Uhm. Thanks? Elsewhere Skeezix addressed my concerns over his debate on Tom Scud and Mahaloth being fishy. I can accept, but not necessarily approve his “shoot from the hip” style. He is more Mcguyver than Jack Bauer. **Then again, he does have a double E, so I guess it fits in, in some weird cosmic sense.** :eek: **In the spirit of elaboration / explanation, Skeezix, Help me out here::** [I cut and pasted this bit here.] Now Tom Scud is voting for Mahaloth for voting lurker. What’s the deal Tom Scud? You still have a vote out on me, but as I re-read your quote: > [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > And to be quite honest, if at this junction scum wants to bus for town credit I’m okay with that. You more or less call Tom Scud, Tom Scum, but are still voting for me. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/760 "2009-12-21T21:17:12Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Tom Scum If I never see that spelling again it will be too soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=39)