# Colorless Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729 "2009-12-02T18:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/861 "2009-12-29T04:59:48Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > It was weird and unmotivated when I did it but not when **Maha** did? I only have one vote. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/862 "2009-12-29T05:09:57Z")
I just think it’s convenient how we both made a vote and I’m the only one getting called out for it. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/863 "2009-12-29T05:34:56Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > It was weird and unmotivated when I did it but not when **Maha** did? I should have commented on Maha in my post and just forgot to, but while I find his vote lacking in reasoning (just disagreeing with someone about a point of strategy doesn’t seem like a sufficient reason in itself) and it does seem to be a very convenient bandwagon to jump on here near the end of the Day, I am still more suspicious of you because of what I think is a pattern of behavior going all the way back to Day 1. The only vote on MHaye that I don’t find suspicious is peeker’s, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/864 "2009-12-29T05:36:28Z")
I don’t see it as a pattern of behavior. I see it as it’s convenient to vote for me so every time _I_ fuck up, it’s some reason why I’m a scum, whereas when anyone else does, they’re just messing up. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/865 "2009-12-29T06:27:37Z")
Ok, I’ve just finished a full re-read of Today. As I was getting caught up with the posts from today (Monday) I was particularly intrigued by **MHaye** , starting at post #845, only to continue reading to find that he’d already gotten a lot of heat (deserved in my opinion). I was prepared to place my vote on him as well, until I got to the last few hours and noticed a swing back towards **Freudian**. I don’t see the \*\*MHaye \*\*wagon Today as anything resembling the massive shift towards \*\*Diggit \*\*we saw Yesterday. As of the last official vote count, \*\*Freudian \*\*was only leading \*\*MHaye \*\*by a 3-1 count and there were other players in between. Hardly the clear front runner that she was Yesterday. and in fact, it wasn’t until Freudian’s vote in #851 that moved the count into a tie. I agree with \*\*Tom \*\*that \*\*Freudian’s \*\*vote in 851 is “weird and unmotivated” and I disagree that the same characterization could be made about \*\*Mahaloth’s \*\*vote in #855. Freudian’s vote is predicated on a complete misunderstanding of \*\*MHaye’s \*\* intended meaning. Whether or not MHaye’s post is an indication of his scumminess is a separate issue altogether. At this point I’m torn. I don’t like MHaye’s hypothetical lynching of peeker or his SK math, but at this point, Freudian’s play has been most Anti-town. I’m conflicted because by my count this vote will place us back into a tie. **vote Freudian Slit** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/866 "2009-12-29T06:36:17Z")
**Vote Count** with about 19 hours and 24 minutes to go. With 16 players, it takes 10 players voting for one person to start a countdown. (peak vote in parentheses) **5 Votes** \ ***MHaye** (5 #856) peekercpa (788), Red Skeezix (849), Freudian Slit (851), Mahaloth (855), Meeko (856) **Freudian Slit** (5 #865) Drain Bead (707), MentalGuy (761), ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (779 817), Alka Seltzer (835), Tom Scud (859), USCDiver (865) **2 Votes** **Tom Scud** (2 #751) ToeJam (737), storyteller0910 (751) **1 Vote** **storyteller0910** (1 #770) GuiriEnEspaña (770) **0 Votes** **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** (2 #790) Freudian Slit (733 851), Meeko (790 856) **Meeko** (1 #708) Red Skeezix (708 849) **ToeJam** (1 #716) Tom Scud (716 723787 859) **Nanook of the North Shore** (1 #721) Mahaloth (721 855) **Mahaloth** (1 #728) Tom Scud (728 787) **Drain Bead** **USCDiver** **peekercpa** **Alka Seltzer** **Red Skeezix** **GuiriEnEspaña** **Mental Guy** _Lynch Leader \*\* Not voting:_\* Nanook of the North Shore, MHaye, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/867 "2009-12-29T07:56:27Z")
I’m still suspicious of **Story** but between his illness and my singleton vote, I’d rather make my vote count Today and revisit the case Tomorrow. **Unvote Storyteller** I don’t think **MHaye** ’s SK math is a reason for a vote - it’s a difference of opinion on strategy but I agree that his “scum wouldn’t do that” (vote for **Pedescribe** and not **Peeker** ) is a weak argument for his towniness, especially in light of **Peeker** ’s counterclaim and the general consensus that **Peeker** was either telling the truth or setting himself up for a lynch on Day 2. I had no problem with his “as a mafiate” statement in the context of his previous post so with just one point against him, I’ll maintain a level of suspicion but not vote toDay. I do have a problem **Freudian** ’s interpretation of **MHaye** ’s posts. This is exactly the reason I voted her yesterDay - if you completely misunderstand a post and then vote the player based on faulty reasoning, please acknowledge this and either build up a new case or move your vote but don’t go all defensive and judgemental when you start to gather votes. **Vote Freudian** As an aside, this is the second time **Red** picked apart a player’s post and - probably unintentionally - started a bandwagon away from **Freudian** based partially on a slightly incorrect interpretation of the original post… ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/868 "2009-12-29T12:03:22Z")
I don’t see the case against mhaye. He could have phrased what he said a bit better, but I still understood it. I don’t necessarily agree, but this late in the game, what boils down to a disagreement on strategy is not enough to vote someone. Freudian’s reaction was interesting. Seems like a bit of her typical skimming and misunderstanding, combined with an attempt at self-preservation (a null tell, as Town will often do the same thing). I still find Freudian scummy overall, and will keep my vote where it is. The biggest reason is that we need the data point of Freudian’s alignment to fully analyze the voting patterns of the last two Days. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/869 "2009-12-29T12:38:31Z")
I’m not liking this sudden bandwagon against MHaye. I don’t think he has been playing very pro-town, his only significant contribution to the game was to push the Diggit mis-lynch, but disagreement over strategy is a poor reason to vote him. Freudian’s vote is just awful, and Malahoth’s isn’t much better. > [@peekercpa](#): > > while your math may very well be valid the conclusions you reach are flawed. you assume a direct relationship to percentage and outcome. that is not how to play. **@MHaye** - You still don’t have a vote down, who is your top pick for scum right now and why? **@Red Skeezix** - What do you think of your vote for MHaye now he has clarified what he meant? Yes, but looking at the numbers is always a good starting point. > [@Meeko](#): > > I was waiting for more information to consider if i should move my vote. > > But, I think this says enough. Looks like other people already agree. **@Meeko** - What is your reason for voting MHaye? It’s not clear to me. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Dude, MHaye, that makes very little sense. I totally disagree with your thoughts about the vig and sk. You just shot way up the list to me. **@Malahoth** - What is your reasoning here, why does that make MHaye scum? Also, you’ve ignored my earlier question about Nanook, why did you vote him? ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/870 "2009-12-29T13:28:32Z")
Day end is this evening, right? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/871 "2009-12-29T15:08:59Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > **@Red Skeezix** - What do you think of your vote for MHaye now he has clarified what he meant? > > Yes, but looking at the numbers is always a good starting point. The excerpt that needed clarification isn’t my primary reason for voting him. I also believed my interpretation of his statement to be incorrect and that’s why I asked for clarification of that point. My primary reason for voting him is that he made a strictly numerical argument against player motivation. You may feel that this is a good starting point, but when it’s numbers against a single role’s motivations, and then compounded to even further push a point, it’s not a starting place: it’s the whole argument. Add to that the fact that all of the numbers are truly hypothetical since we are in a 20 person game and not a 25 person game, it comes off to me as complete bluster. An additional note: I do feel that numerical arguments have their place in mafia, but that place is not when ascribing what a player or team would do in a given circumstance. This is largely in part to the knowledge of if a player is acting deliberately or acting randomly residing solely in the actor. @ **Alka** : You have responded: "I’m not strongly convinced that Freudian is scum, but she has done nothing to convince me she is town since nearly being lynched yesterday. My vote is part tactical and part policy. " Can you please identify what tactic you refer to here, and to what policy as well? Just a note: I find this statement troubling, since you are admittedly voting for someone you do not think is scum. I’m not sure that you meant it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/872 "2009-12-29T16:02:01Z")
Okay. I know that **MHaye** and I are tied. And there actually is something I can say in my own defense. I didn’t want to do it till I absolutely had to, but I think I do now. I’m role claiming. I’m the doctor. I’ve been trying to play as scummy as possible in the hopes that scum would leave me alone at night, so I didn’t have to self protect in the event of an emergency. And as far as I know, it’s been working. I’ve been protecting **peeker** in case he gets targeted at night by scum. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/873 "2009-12-29T16:05:51Z")
Gah. **unvote Freudian** How do we play the claim/counter here? That is, if it’s a false claim, should the real doctor claim? Should the real doc stay mum, and we go after **Freudian** if she fails to die tonight (or tomorrow night)? Or is that making it too easy for the scum to set her up for a mislynch? Aargh. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/874 "2009-12-29T16:09:20Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Okay. I know that **MHaye** and I are tied. As far as I can see you were in the lead until **Tom** ’s unvote. For now, I’ll join him: **Unvote freudian** > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m the doctor. Did you breadcrumb your role anywhere? > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’ve been trying to play as scummy as possible You appear to have done a good job. What made you think Town wouldn’t go after you for being so scummy? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/875 "2009-12-29T16:17:15Z")
I didn’t do any breadcrumbing–the closest I got was trying to be extra suspicious of other people for claiming (i.e., pedescribe) because I didn’t want people claiming willy nilly just to get out of the noose. I honestly wasn’t sure how I would–I’ve never really played a power role before. I didn’t know that Town wouldn’t, but it was the risk I thought I should take. Granted, I sort of walked into it by being scummy to begin with by accident. After a while though I figured I’d just go with it since I assumed scum would be avoiding me. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/876 "2009-12-29T16:21:25Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’ve never really played a power role before. /Snipped I assume you’re ignoring Screamers again - you were the town jailor, a power role, right? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/877 "2009-12-29T16:24:20Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > /Snipped > > I assume you’re ignoring Screamers again - you were the town jailor, a power role, right? Yeah. But I didn’t do a whole lot with it, and, um, I kind of dropped out of that game without saying much, so I try not to think of that role. In the interests of full, FULL disclosure, I’ve played scum power roles–Necromancer in that weird four sided game, and plain scum in that dossier one, and serial killer in the gasterd one…and I think a couple of others where I was a vanilla Townie. It’s not something I’ve got a huge amount of experience with, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/878 "2009-12-29T16:41:57Z")
Thanks, that makes things a little clearer - you mischaracterized your experience. Reviewing your posts, looking for breadcrumbs, I noticed these: Before you received your role PM you asked twice about the Doc and self-protection. What a coincidence that you just happened to be assigned that role!!! > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > NETA: > **Can the Town Doctor protect him/herself?** When **Pedescribe** claimed vig, you said this (snipped): > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But it’s such a cliche. Person is about to die, they pull out a power role, and most of the time they’re lying. Is this one of the few times they’re telling the truth? And this one: > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, frankly, I think your whole, “I’m going to unvote until I see what the rest of the Town says” is kind of scummy to me. Or at best cowardly. It just seems like a traditionally safe response to me. So should I revote you? I don’t mean to attack you but I’m seriously doubting your claim based on your gameplay and posts. I really don’t want to lynch you if you’re the Doc. But if you’re lying, I don’t want the real Doc to counterclaim… I would like to see what the rest of Town says - even if that means I’m acting cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/879 "2009-12-29T16:43:52Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Okay. I know that **MHaye** and I are tied. And there actually is something I can say in my own defense. > > I didn’t want to do it till I absolutely had to, but I think I do now. > > I’m role claiming. I’m the doctor. I’ve been trying to play as scummy as possible in the hopes that scum would leave me alone at night, so I didn’t have to self protect in the event of an emergency. And as far as I know, it’s been working. I’ve been protecting **peeker** in case he gets targeted at night by scum. > > That’s all. how do you know you haven’t been blocked? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/880 "2009-12-29T16:49:35Z")
Well, okay, I might have been blocked–I guess I hadn’t thought it through. What I meant is, I chose to protect you and you weren’t killed. Of course that could mean any number of things. **Guiri** , my rationale for not wanting people to claim was because I didn’t want people claiming randomly – because I figured people would be less likely to believe ME if I claimed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=45)