# Colorless Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729 "2009-12-02T18:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1381 "2010-01-19T00:31:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s a long shot, I know, but did anyone keep track of all of the votes (including retracted votes)? I’d like to see just how badly my program would have failed, but it’d be a lot of work to wade through the game and pick them out myself. > On another note, I have a game I could run, but I’d want an experienced moderator to check it over to make sure it’s balanced (and, of course, to volunteer not to play in it). It’s a fairly simple one, but with a couple of new twists. My vote counts included unvotes. Each Day had a vote count at some point after the last vote. It shouldn’t be difficult to track Down. Maybe I can do it later if you don’t do it yourself ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1382 "2010-01-19T00:33:21Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > It didn’t matter who you killed. > > I think the actual ‘optimal’ scum move would have been to have Mental Guy kill Alka. > > That would have eliminated the fear Scum would have had from being ‘detected’ by Alka. > > The Scum should have expected Peeker not to shoot. > > However, had peeker shot from the unconfirmed pool (no guarantee after Night 5), his possibilities were: > > 1 out of 6 chance Tom was godfather. > 2 out of 5 chance any others were Scum > 6.67% chance of hitting Scum > 5 out of 6 chance Tom was NOT godfather > 3 out of 5 chance any others were Scum > 50% chance of hitting Scum > > So, in reality, peeker had a 57% chance of hitting Scum by shooting into the unconfirmed pool. He just didn’t. > > And he shouldn’t have tried, because he wouldn’t buy the Town an extra mislynch, they’d still be at lynch or lose at 4-2 (assuming Alka was dead) I did expect peeker not to shoot. I wasn’t really running numbers at the time, but I would say I was thinking about a 70% chance he wouldn’t shoot and if he did shoot, about a 70% chance he would shoot story or Cookies, with about another 10% chance he would shoot Meeko. So, I guess overall, I was thinking there was about a 6% chance that Drain or I would get hit. I wasn’t all that worried about him hitting Meeko, since I thought we should be able to pull off a mislynch even he got offed. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1383 "2010-01-19T00:52:35Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Sorry about that, didn’t mean to beat down on you. Still, it was me who got lynched on the first Day; at least you got to play Vig all game long. > > Good game, though! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1384 "2010-01-19T00:57:57Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > How was it PIS to vote for Drain the night there was no NK ? Since I’m the one who made the comment, it’s because you automatically jumped on Drain being scum when it was revealed that she had been blocked the night of the no kill, in spite of the fact that there were other equally plausible reasons for no night kill which you seemed to completely discount. You knew the night kill didn’t happen because Drain was chosen for the kill, the kill didn’t go through, and the person claiming town blocker, who you knew was town and so would have no reason to lie, claimed to block drain. You were bussing for cred, and doing it haphazardly. There had been little if any discussion as to why the kill didn’t happen. Does it put Drain in a bad light, sure. But it alone isn’t voteworthy. It’s a data point. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1385 "2010-01-19T00:58:08Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > :dubious: Yeah, Diggit was skimming, he must be Scum! ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1386 "2010-01-19T03:13:17Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > It’s all in good fun, and you’re a good man. What happens in the game, stays in the game as Mhaye loves to believe. But I do like the term “pulling a peeks” \*\*And some of us are just glad that “Pulling a Meeks” is yet to exist. \*\* \*Yes, I used the word yet. I’m not holding any disillusions on my play. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1387 "2010-01-19T03:17:00Z")
For what it’s worth, I tend to skim more as a Townie than as Scum. But it depends on my scholastic situations and free time mostly- if I miss a Day or two I’ll skim. When I’m scum, I’ll take detailed notes and I actually sit down and make charts and such. As a townie, I use the fact that I have the Town behind me more to be lenient, it’s only when you get to LyLo that you should worry about skimming and such- because in the end you can always pull a Cookies to redeem yourself, vs. Scum that have to watch themselves EVERY step of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1388 "2010-01-19T17:20:29Z")
Game of missed opportunities for me. I almost blocked MentalGuy night 1 (and said so in my night action PM) but talked myself out of it. Thinking about it, I probably should have blocked nights 1 and 2. **@Mental** - I think you played the strongest game throughout. **@Red** - Sorry about getting you lynched. After my block of Drain I was watching carefully for any interactions with her. Your quick switch to her looked a bit bussy to me, and was part of the reason I claimed when I did. Looking at the scum board, it got their attention too. It’s a shame I didn’t wait another night, they suspected you were the town blocker as a result, and if they’d NK’ed you I’d have nailed Drain for sure. **@Peeker** - It’s easy to criticise the vig when they get things wrong. Personally, I’d have hedged my bets somewhat by vigging for information rather than going for my top suspects. I think vig the vote runner-up can be a reasonable strategy, as it deprives scum of easy mis-lynches and generates info for town at a faster rate. I didn’t mind you taking a shot on the final night, we were in a hole anyway. **@Story** - My suspicions of you had nothing do with your reputation, and you didn’t help yourself by getting frustrated. The problem with your case against Tom was that other players looked just as bad as he did from the voting record. When you ignored my questions about the other wagons I thought you might be scum trying to avoid implicating your team mates. I should have made it clear I was thinking this. **@USCDiver** - I think you should have either counter-claimed right away, or ridden it out without drawing so much attention to yourself. By claiming the next day scum were able to take you out anyway, and they got an extra mis-lynch out of it. **@Town** - If you are vanilla and there is a claim it’s not neccessarily a good idea to remove your vote. By doing so you are helping the scum to role-fish. Each claim should be assessed on it’s merits. I’d welcome any thoughts on my play in this game. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1389 "2010-01-19T18:16:14Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I’d welcome any thoughts on my play in this game. Something I mentioned in the spoiled discussion thread and bears repeating: I think what you always need to keep in mind is that though scum aren’t collectively stupid, they will not only screw up individually, but collectively they will not always play optimally. You approached your analysis from what you figured would be scum’s best play given what you knew. But remember, scum aren’t you. Sometimes scum will intentionally play sub-optimally to toss a wrench into town’s analysis (IMO, this rarely works to any real benefit), but usually, it’s because they forgot some detail or just plainly screwed up (though, even the sub-optimal plays are still usually to scum’s benefit since they have multiple heads working together). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1390 "2010-01-19T18:31:35Z")
Go scum! Sorry I was out so soon but I like to think I helped in my own way by drawing out the Doc. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1391 "2010-01-19T18:38:28Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > **@Red** - Sorry about getting you lynched. After my block of Drain I was watching carefully for any interactions with her. Your quick switch to her looked a bit bussy to me, and was part of the reason I claimed when I did. Looking at the scum board, it got their attention too. It’s a shame I didn’t wait another night, they suspected you were the town blocker as a result, and if they’d NK’ed you I’d have nailed Drain for sure. No need to apologize, I was carrying suspicion from Day 1 on, I had a feeling it would catch up to me eventually. I made some terrible (in hindsight) decisions. I’m pretty new to the game, so yeah I fuck up alot :D. @Meeko: Don’t think “pulling a Meeks” doesn’t exist. I mean, I did read Conspiracy 3. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1392 "2010-01-19T22:11:07Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Something I mentioned in the spoiled discussion thread and bears repeating: > > I think what you always need to keep in mind is that though scum aren’t collectively stupid, they will not only screw up individually, but collectively they will not always play optimally. You approached your analysis from what you figured would be scum’s best play given what you knew. But remember, scum aren’t you. Sometimes scum will intentionally play sub-optimally to toss a wrench into town’s analysis (IMO, this rarely works to any real benefit), but usually, it’s because they forgot some detail or just plainly screwed up (though, even the sub-optimal plays are still usually to scum’s benefit since they have multiple heads working together). I gotta agree with \*\*Hoops \*\*there. He pretty much said it in much nicer ways than my rantings over on the other Spoiled boards. The key problem also is when you start to expect certain plays from scum that makes it easier for scum to manipulate you. Anyone who starts to focus on absolutes is then prone for manipulation simply by having a quiet scum member agree with his policies, and simply avoid committing the errors (like the “It’s scummy to skim Meme”), trying to analyze what scum WOULD do isn’t the best, but rather the most annoying and most effective strategy (that i hated going up against when I’m scum) are the players such as NAF, and a few others that would advocate looking for MOTIVATIONS. “Whats the scummy motivation” for this action or that action. It’s less emphasis on the action itself that was taken, but more focus on WHO benefits the most by the action taken- a vote switch or a vote that’s placed and removed. It’s okay to look at them as votes and all, but it’s also effective to look at it as “why” was it done. Storyteller points it out very well as when he tells the tale of Cookies and how she basically went thru and re-read EVERYTHING with the assumption that both peep were scum. Then each action is judged as “Which is scummier” and so forth until you end up voting for the scummiest by that method. Usually a better strategy in the longer run, and much harder for scum to deal with. Easier just to kill NAF rather than have him get on my Case about my votes for bussing a fellow scum member and such. Because what’s my motivation- townies sure they want to get scum, but scum also want townie cred so a bussing vote shouldn’t make anyone look townier, but only scummy and scummier based on the context of it. Only way I found around that was to pull a Ro0sh and just do something unexpected to derail the topic if possible or halt that sorta thinking early on by trying to put those sorts of players on the defensive and get them lynched. Sure, I’d look scummy, but hey, now the main analysis guy is gone so less likely for others to pick up on it! ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1393 "2010-01-19T23:26:08Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > @Meeko: Don’t think “pulling a Meeks” doesn’t exist. I mean, I did read Conspiracy 3. Conspiracy 3 for my part was two things : 1. Not knowing what Bussing meant 2. Taking Ed at his word that he would vote for me later, rather than sooner. He did not. And for the record, Bussing SUCKS. It is not needed. Nor is it best play. It can’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1394 "2010-01-19T23:29:21Z")
Very seriously though, I think I am getting better at this. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1395 "2010-01-19T23:38:15Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > And for the record, Bussing SUCKS. It is not needed. Nor is it best play. It can’t be. Bussing totally is a GREAT play. IE: See \*\*Storyteller \*\*in the 2nd ever Mafia game here. It’s why no one trusts **Storyteller**. Ever. And why he’s a God among Godfathers in my Book. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1396 "2010-01-19T23:52:12Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Conspiracy 3 for my part was two things : > > 1. Not knowing what Bussing meant > > 2. Taking Ed at his word that he would vote for me later, rather than sooner. He did not. > And for the record, Bussing SUCKS. It is not needed. Nor is it best play. It can’t be. Bussing is frequently the optimal play for Scum. If you look at this game, Drain avoided suspicion by being an early voter for Freudian. IN fact, that vote probably helped later when Alka Seltzer had suspicions. And, if you look at Day 6, BOTH other Scum were voting for you, Meeko, had you been lynched, I’m certain the Town would have looked at lynching the Red voters as trying to ‘save’ you. And, as for me voting you, if you’re referring to Conspiracy, I did play that poorly, not for fighting with you on Day 1 (and I honestly thought you understood what I was doing and were playing along) but for drawing so much attention to us in a game with some many killing powers and so many factions. Had 1 of us lived, we would have had significant ‘non-werewolf’ credibility. And, for the record, I was voting for you, not busing you. Neither of us were in significant danger of being lynched (and, obviously we weren’t) I was just providing a data point for later on to separate us from each other. In any case, busing is sometimes a good play, and sometimes a bad play. IN this game with Freudian obviously going down, being one of the people pushing for that lynch for a long time really looked good, especially when so many Town jumped off the case so many times. If Drain and Mental hadn’t been key behind getting Freudian lynched, they would have been most likely next to be lynched (much like what happened to Red, who did jump off the Freudian wagon) ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1397 "2010-01-19T23:57:22Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Very seriously though, I think I am getting better at this. You are definitely getting better. And you have insights which are unique. And you see things other people miss. But, I do think you’re still a little too stubborn. You adhere too strongly to ideas that seem wrong to you without seeing all of the insights and benefits behind it. Of course, there are many ways I can improve my game. Like not being so vocal I get myself killed early 😃 ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1398 "2010-01-20T00:44:59Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > Bussing totally is a GREAT play. IE: See \*\*Storyteller \*\*in the 2nd ever Mafia game here. > It’s why no one trusts **Storyteller**. Ever. And why he’s a God among Godfathers in my Book. Aw, thanks, ToeRoosh. 'Twas a good time. But in fairness, that shit I pulled in that game would _never_ work with the present crowd. We’ve all seen too much. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1399 "2010-01-20T01:05:26Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > And for the record, Bussing SUCKS. It is not needed. Nor is it best play. It can’t be. Says the guy who was planning to bus himself if the game had lasted longer. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729/1400 "2010-01-20T01:33:13Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Aw, thanks, ToeRoosh. 'Twas a good time. But in fairness, that shit I pulled in that game would _never_ work with the present crowd. We’ve all seen too much. What’s funny is that when **Freudian** gave me the opportunity, my exact thought pattern was “Fuck it, I’m going **storyteller** this game.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/colorless-mafia/519729.md?page=71)