# Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323 "2021-10-11T21:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/261 "2021-11-04T21:55:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And this history of that state is the history of the people who form it. That doesn’t follow at all, at least not by my intuition. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/262 "2021-11-04T22:00:41Z")
ISTM that you’re thinking a country is strictly a formal state entity, and nothing more. What others are saying is that a country is more than that, and includes the land, peoples, cultures, etc., that make it up and made it up. So American history is the history of the formal state of the USA, but also the history of the people that live within its borders, and the history of the people that lived on the land that eventually became part of the USA. So it seems like a semantics discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/263 "2021-11-04T22:02:35Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > And indigenous culture didn’t? Indigenous culture _did_ and in some areas _does_ influence the culture of the United States. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > You’ve bought into the myth of the ‘stupid savage’. I have not, or at least I don’t think I have. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > See the compelling arguments in the book I mentioned above, that 18th century Enlightenment values arose as a result of the Native-American critique of European culture. And arose first in France due to the engagement of Jesuit priests in debates with Native-Americans. I did read the reviews you linked, but not having read the book yet I have no formed opinion on the claims. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Nor were indigenous Americans stupid. I _don’t_ believe indigenous Americans were stupid. I don’t even believe the concept of a nation or state is predicated on agriculture. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The idea that indigenous societies and politics were simple or unsophisticated is similarly mistaken. Agreed… but I don’t think I’ve claimed otherwise. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/264 "2021-11-04T22:37:57Z")
And for my own part, my family has no ties to England or Angles or Saxons. One side is, I believe (would have to check), entirely descended from Russian Jews fleeing pogroms just over a century ago. The other side fled China in 1949, within living memory. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/265 "2021-11-04T22:39:49Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > WTF does “opposite of U.S. history” even mean? I should have written, the side of history opposite the U.S. As in wars and such. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/266 "2021-11-04T22:49:44Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > That doesn’t follow at all, at least not by my intuition. Then perhaps you should revisit your intuition. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/267 "2021-11-04T23:36:28Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And the history of the United States is the history of all of us. > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > If a shared history is required for a national identity, but not all history is shared by the individuals who comprise the nation, it follows that some history is excluded. > > No. It does not follow. What follows is that the shared history needs to include the history of all of us. What are you trying to say here? I assume you made a counterargument, but I see this (by simple substitution) > the shared history needs to include the history of the United States not this > no history is excluded > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Attempting to include the history only of Europeans in the case of the United States is absurd. I didn’t attempt to include the history only of Europeans, I would exclude history of any individual _before they join the nation_. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Columbus was long before anyone joined the nation. That is true. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But for one hell of a lot of other people, also no U.S. Will address this with **MrDibble** ’s post later. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I was born in the USA and have lived here all my life and Max, you do not get to declare what the national identity of the USA is. You don’t have to _agree_ with me… but I do get to declare what the national identity of the USA is. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/268 "2021-11-04T23:53:25Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > This is an assertion of yours, but it’s not supported by anything. Our national identity isn’t some uniform story that everyone must incorporate into their narrative. There’s no reason that everyone must identify with every aspect of our history. There _is_ a reason behind my opinion, which you actually picked up on right here: > [@Telemark](#): > > Our national identity isn’t singular National identity _is_ singular. It follows from semantics. Stop me where you disagree: “identity” is singular, therefore “national identity” is also singular. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/269 "2021-11-05T00:01:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sophistry If I was, not on purpose. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/270 "2021-11-05T00:13:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The great famine in Ireland, for example, is properly Irish/British history and not U.S. history. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Why is some Italian, who never set foot on it, part of US history, but thousands of Irish, who very much did, are not? That’s nonsensical. > [@Max\_S](#): > > _But-for_ Columbus, no U.S. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But for one hell of a lot of other people, also no U.S. > > And if Columbus hadn’t made that voyage, other people in Europe would have soon figured out there was a continent there – some of them already had found some of the actual continent, which is more than Columbus did. > > What happened was that Europe at that point had developed the technology to make long ocean voyages that were out of sight of land for significant periods; and that Europe at that point had multiple nations with competitive expansionists natures. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Almost certainly not true. I mean butterfly wings and all, but really Columbus was just lucky to be the discoverer of record. Others probably preceded him in the north searching for fishing grounds and the Portuguese hit Brazil just a few years later. As noted above it is likely an inevitability the New World have been “discovered” in a matter of a few decades at the most, if not in just a few years (it is uncertain whether Cabral’s was an accidental discovery, but it is quite plausible - given their activity off Africa it was an easy reach). It wouldn’t have remained isolated until 1768 or whatever. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Same-same for the Irish. […] Like, say, excluding from US identity any Caribbean, Italian and Spanish history circa 1492? Be consistent, man. I have made a grievous mistake. By my own arguments the voyages of Columbus are not properly U.S. history. If you would allow me to revise my response, > [@MrDibble](#): > > Why is some Italian, who never set foot on it, part of US history, but thousands of Irish, who very much did, are not? That’s nonsensical. Neither would properly be part of U.S. history. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/271 "2021-11-05T00:15:51Z")
nm, posted before I was ready ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/272 "2021-11-05T00:16:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If you don’t see the self-evident moral value in basing your identity around resisters to oppression rather than oppressors, I don’t think any amount of _argument_ is going to help you. I don’t see the self-evident moral value, so I guess that’s that. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/273 "2021-11-05T00:18:05Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I have made a grievous mistake. By my own arguments the voyages of Columbus are not properly U.S. history. OK. So we’re done here, right? You’ve agreed that the entire premise of your thread was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/274 "2021-11-05T00:28:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ISTM that you’re thinking a country is strictly a formal state entity, and nothing more. What others are saying is that a country is more than that, and includes the land, peoples, cultures, etc., that make it up and made it up. So American history is the history of the formal state of the USA, but also the history of the people that live within its borders, and the history of the people that lived on the land that eventually became part of the USA. > > So it seems like a semantics discussion. That may be the focus of the discussion, but aside from linguistics I do actually take [a position](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/35) - a weak one I admit, but as of yet still my opinion - and others actually disagree with it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/275 "2021-11-05T00:31:58Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Then perhaps you should revisit your intuition. (If only it were so easy!) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/276 "2021-11-05T00:32:18Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > OK. So we’re done here, right? You’ve agreed that the entire premise of your thread was wrong. No, unfortunately Columbus being part of U.S. history was not the premise. That was a tangent. :sad: ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/277 "2021-11-05T00:49:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > National identity _is_ singular. No, it really isn’t. Are you saying that a national identity that includes descendants of slaves and descendants of slave-owners is singular? That the national identity of the DAR and those of the Japanese interned during WWII are singular? Your premise doesn’t pass the smell test. You’re striving to support an idea that makes no sense, and you’re twisting yourself into knots trying to defend it. It’s a worthless definition since it doesn’t mean anything to vast number of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/278 "2021-11-05T01:20:35Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > No, unfortunately Columbus being part of U.S. history was not the premise. I’m still trying to understand your viewpoint and it still doesn’t seem to make sense. According to your narrow legalistic view, are you saying that nothing that happened before 1776 was part of US history, because the US didn’t legally exist before that? And that nothing that happened outside the formal borders of the US is part of US history if it didn’t involve US citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/279 "2021-11-05T01:43:28Z")
And what is a National Identity? Who does it apply to? What is it used for? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/280 "2021-11-05T02:37:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > unfortunately Columbus being part of U.S. history was not the premise. um, I guess you’re right about that. We appear to have been arguing about that only since post 35 of a now roughly 280 post thread. > [@Telemark](#): > > And what is a National Identity? Who does it apply to? What is it used for? Or maybe that’s what we’ve been arguing about since post 35. It doesn’t seem to be getting any clearer, whatever it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=15)