# Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323 "2021-10-11T21:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/281 "2021-11-05T04:52:57Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > “identity” is singular, _BZZZT_ I’m going to stop you there.: [Essential Meaning of _identity_](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/identity) - who someone is :the name of a person _(irrelevant for our discussion)_ - the qualit **ies** , belief **s** , etc., that make a particular person or **group** different from others (what concerns us) Identity is a collective noun as far as we’re concerned, but the argument here is whether it’s necessarily a rigid invariant **objective** collective, or a fluid, **subjective** one. You seem to be arguing the former, but the mere fact that people in your own nation disagree with you should be alerting you to the truth of the latter. So by the way you’re using “singular” here, no, identity _isn’t_ singular. No _subjective_ set of predicates is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/282 "2021-11-05T04:59:17Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t see the self-evident moral value Let me just check - are you actually saying you see no moral difference between an oppressor and a resister to oppression? I’d love to know what moral framework you’re using, then. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/283 "2021-11-05T07:22:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > No, unfortunately Columbus being part of U.S. history was not the premise. That was a tangent > [@Max\_S](#): > > **Should Americans celebrate Columbus Day, , Indigenous People’s Day, Leif Erikson Day, or some combination of the three?** It’s not outright stated in the OP, but “These are all things that are part of American history” is _implicit_ in the question that _is_ asked. Hardly a “tangent”. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/284 "2021-11-05T08:04:09Z")
If all Americans should identify with Native Americans, the current legal status of Christmas should be made equivalent to all other religious celebrations. If the US is not a “Christian nation” why does only that religion get preferential treatment in the form of a federal holliday? If Americans are to truly embrace a Native American national identity, all (widely) recognised Native American (religious) hollidays/celebrations should be made federal or any religious/non-secular holliday that exists or may exist should stop being federal. Claiming Christianity is not an integral part of a national or cultural identity of the US, yet having “In God We Trust” on its currency and having a federal public holliday for Christmas but not Hindu, Muslim or, indeed, Native American celebrations does not square with me. So therefore, saying that Native Americans and their history is just as much a part of the overall national, cultural and historic identity of America and most Americans rings hollow. Maybe in the future that might be true but it does not feel to be true currently. A solution may be to either scrap Columbus Day or change its name to something better and ADD an additional federal holliday to honor Native Americans, as well as having a federal holiday for each (major) religion or for none of them. But if Native Americans as a group get a federal holliday, Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Cuban Americans, Filipino Americans, Puerto Ricans etc should all get seperate federal hollidays. They are just as much a part of whatever American national idenity exists as Native Americans are. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/285 "2021-11-05T14:33:39Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > If all Americans should identify with Native Americans, the current legal status of Christmas should be made equivalent to all other religious celebrations. Fine by me. I recognize that it’s impractical to try to accomplish this currently. > [@yarblek](#): > > Claiming Christianity is not an integral part of a national or cultural identity of the US, yet having “In God We Trust” on its currency and having a federal public holliday for Christmas but not Hindu, Muslim or, indeed, Native American celebrations does not square with me. > > So therefore, saying that Native Americans and their history is just as much a part of the overall national, cultural and historic identity of America and most Americans rings hollow. Nope. That much of the culture prefers to ignore much of its history doesn’t make that history, or its current effects, disappear. > [@yarblek](#): > > Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Cuban Americans, Filipino Americans, Puerto Ricans etc [. . .] are just as much a part of whatever American national idenity exists as Native Americans are. True. And just as much a part as European Americans are. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/286 "2021-11-05T14:53:01Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > If Americans are to truly embrace a Native American national identity, Who said that? It’s the OP who believes there is only a single narrative that everyone in the country should embrace. Everyone else has said that our national identity (if such a beast exists) weaves all the cultures, experiences, and traditions that have contributed to making us who we are today. That should include not only western European aspects, but Native American and a host of others. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/287 "2021-11-05T19:36:51Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > If Americans are to truly embrace a Native American national identity, all (widely) recognised Native American (religious) hollidays/celebrations should be made federal or any religious/non-secular holliday that exists or may exist should stop being federal. Native Americans can’t be Christians? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/288 "2021-11-05T19:49:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Native Americans can’t be Christians? Some are. Some aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/289 "2021-11-05T20:02:23Z")
That’s my point - the idea that “Native American religion holiday” excludes Christmas ignores the realities of Native American religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/290 "2021-11-05T20:06:40Z")
But I don’t think that was the point being made. I think the point being made was that putting other heritages in a position of full equality means that Christmas shouldn’t, as it is now, be the one and only religious holiday that’s also an official national holiday. Which I think it shouldn’t be; but it’s certainly not the hill I’m going to die on this year, or probably any year in my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/291 "2021-11-10T17:56:18Z")
57 posts were split to a new topic: [Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138) ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/294 "2021-11-05T22:07:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d love to know what moral framework you’re using, then. I wouldn’t. It seems pretty awful. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/296 "2021-11-05T23:08:50Z")
Irish??? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/303 "2021-11-06T01:44:04Z")
But it’s a hijack in this thread. We can have this repeated annual discussion about whether Christmas is secular or religious in its own thread, like we do every year. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/304 "2021-11-06T07:18:53Z")
Did you miss the discussion of Irish immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/306 "2021-11-06T08:29:39Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But it’s a hijack in this thread. We can have this repeated annual discussion about whether Christmas is secular or religious in its own thread, like we do every year. You’re right, it is a hijack, happy to drop it until the annual thread… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/307 "2021-11-06T13:17:49Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > If the US is not a “Christian nation” why does only that religion get preferential treatment in the form of a federal holliday? Great point, I agree Christmas should not be a federal holiday. > [@yarblek](#): > > Claiming Christianity is not an integral part of a national or cultural identity of the US, yet having “In God We Trust” on its currency and having a federal public holliday for Christmas but not Hindu, Muslim or, indeed, Native American celebrations does not square with me. Agreed, should remove In God We Trust from our money (and Under God from the Pledge, though a “pledge of allegiance” in most settings is just fucking weird anyways and I wouldn’t mind if we got rid of it altogether outside the army). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/326 "2021-11-06T19:24:59Z")
Immigrants, sure. But in that context, I thought you were referencing Irish explorers. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/348 "2021-11-09T23:01:41Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Are you saying that a national identity that includes descendants of slaves and descendants of slave-owners is singular? Yes, of course. If a slave-owner’s descendent and a slave’s descendent did not share the same national identity, they would not belong to the same nation. > [@Telemark](#): > > That the national identity of the DAR and those of the Japanese interned during WWII are singular? I assume DAR stands for Daughters of the Revolution. That is trickier, because not all persons interned during WWII were American nationals at the time, and not all survived to become nationals after (people born in Japan could not become citizens until 1952). So in some cases, a Japanese person interned during WWII was also a Japanese and not American national - thus not the same national identity as a Daughter of the Revolution. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/349 "2021-11-09T23:01:53Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > According to your narrow legalistic view, are you saying that nothing that happened before 1776 was part of US history, because the US didn’t legally exist before that? > > And that nothing that happened outside the formal borders of the US is part of US history if it didn’t involve US citizens? … yes, I’m going to say that the 13 colonies pre-declaration are properly British history and the Irish famine is properly Irish history, because the people were British/Irish nationals at the time. &etc. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=16)