# Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323 "2021-10-11T21:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/350 "2021-11-09T23:02:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > We appear to have been arguing about that only since post 35 of a now roughly 280 post thread. Then I direct you to post 35, where it was _not_ argued that Columbus was part of U.S. history. Arguments I made include, > [@Max\_S](#): > > recognizing that the U.S. owes its existence to the voyages of Columbus is _a core part of our national identity_ . Columbus and his successors committed atrocities, even in the eyes of the Spanish crown at the time, and **that history is an important part of our _national identity_**. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/351 "2021-11-09T23:02:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _BZZZT_ > I’m going to stop you there.: Wonderful (the buzzer). But ‘identity’ is still singular, the plural form is listed as _identities_. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Identity is a collective noun as far as we’re concerned, but the argument here is whether it’s necessarily a rigid invariant objective collective, or a fluid, subjective one. You seem to be arguing the former, but the mere fact that people in your own nation disagree with you should be alerting you to the truth of the latter. Opinions are, of course subjective. But my opinion is that other people in my own nation are _wrong_ to think there is more than one single national identity. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/352 "2021-11-09T23:16:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Let me just check - are you actually saying you see no moral difference between an oppressor and a resister to oppression? I meant that I don’t see the self-evident moral value in basing one’s national identity around resisters to oppression rather than oppressors. Specifically, in my own words rather than yours, I don’t see the self-evident moral value in identifying my nation with historic Native Americans rather than Columbus. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/353 "2021-11-09T23:16:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s not outright stated in the OP, but “These are all things that are part of American history” is implicit in the question that is asked. I disagree. There are reasons for Americans to celebrate a day aside from the day commemorating an event that is properly part of U.S. history. The first thing to come to mind is New Year’s Day. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/354 "2021-11-09T23:33:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > recognizing that the U.S. owes its existence to the voyages of Columbus is _a core part of our national identity_ . I disagree with both parts of that. As I’m pretty sure I’ve already said. > [@Max\_S](#): > > my opinion is that other people in my own nation are _wrong_ to think there is more than one single national identity. How can there be one single national identity if people who are part of the nation disagree about what it is? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I meant that I don’t see the self-evident moral value in basing one’s national identity around resisters to oppression rather than oppressors. Ugh. I’m seriously tempted to say that if you can’t see it, then there’s probably no sense in trying to explain it to you, because it’s bloody obvious. However, it’s possible that I’ll think of a different answer if I let it steep in the back of my head for a while. > [@Max\_S](#): > > There are reasons for Americans to celebrate a day aside from the day commemorating an event that is properly part of U.S. history. The first thing to come to mind is New Year’s Day. New Year’s Day isn’t part of US national identity. It’s an international holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/355 "2021-11-10T01:39:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > … yes, I’m going to say that the 13 colonies pre-declaration are properly British history and the Irish famine is properly Irish history, because the people were British/Irish nationals at the time. &etc. Sure, but they’re also part of US history. I don’t see why you’re so hung up on putting all these complex intertwined entities into tidy mutually exclusive categories. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/356 "2021-11-10T02:52:37Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If a slave-owner’s descendent and a slave’s descendent did not share the same national identity, they would not belong to the same nation. Then we have nothing left to discuss. We fundamentally disagree on what a national identity is and what use it is. You’re out on an island by yourself, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/358 "2021-11-10T05:51:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Let me just check - are you actually saying you see no moral difference between an oppressor and a resister to oppression? > > I meant that I don’t see the self-evident moral value in basing one’s national identity around resisters to oppression rather than oppressors. You failed to answer the actual question asked of you. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I disagree. There are reasons for Americans to celebrate a day aside from the day commemorating an event that is properly part of U.S. history. But that is not the linking feature in the three alternates in the OP, so therefore irrelevant. The connection I pointed out is _still_ implicit there. > [@Max\_S](#): > > If a slave-owner’s descendent and a slave’s descendent did not share the same national identity, they would not belong to the same nation. Blacks who don’t identify with slaveowners aren’t real Americans, gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/362 "2021-11-10T15:13:25Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I disagree with both parts of that. As I’m pretty sure I’ve already said. I quoted #35 again because you pointed to it as me saying Columbus’s voyages were part of U.S. history. I didn’t quote it to imply you hadn’t responded to it. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > my opinion is that other people in my own nation are _wrong_ to think there is more than one single national identity. > > How can there be one single national identity if people who are part of the nation disagree about what it is? Some people are wrong. I wrote that in the very sentence you quoted. This reminds me of a recent debate where @Exapno_Mapcase argued, because people disagree on the answers to any given religious question, religion can not exist. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > New Year’s Day isn’t part of US national identity. It’s an international holiday. I think it’s both. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/363 "2021-11-10T15:18:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but they’re also part of US history. I don’t see why you’re so hung up on putting all these complex intertwined entities into tidy mutually exclusive categories. “Tidy mutually exclusive categories” is the very nature of categorization - the explicit purpose of distinguishing _U.S._ history from other history. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/364 "2021-11-10T15:29:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You failed to answer the actual question asked of you. Very well, > [@MrDibble](#): > > Let me just check - are you actually saying you see no moral difference between an oppressor and a resister to oppression? I am not actually saying that. > [@MrDibble](#): > > But that is not the linking feature in the three alternates in the OP, so therefore irrelevant. The connection I pointed out is _still_ implicit there. Indigenous People’s Day is not like the others in that list. Whereas Leif Erikson Day and Columbus Day celebrate either specific historic individuals, a specific historic event (western civilization reaching the Americas / meeting of peoples from both hemispheres), or a people/culture (Italian/Nordic), depending on who you ask. I’ve been defending Columbus day as a celebration of the event, and to that end wrote that I was okay with changing the name and taking down statutes of Columbus himself. Indigenous People’s day celebrates a people/culture. Or am I mistaken? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Blacks who don’t identify with slaveowners aren’t real Americans, gotcha. I didn’t write that and don’t believe it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/366 "2021-11-10T15:40:26Z")
> [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/52): > > Max\_S is wrong in expecting Black Americans to treat the iconography of the white Founding Fathers as a neutral de-racialized element of shared cultural identity? For what it’s worth, that’s not an accurate statement of my position. You would have to take out the “neutral de-racialized”, and I would prefer to specify that the element of shared cultural identity is the national element (so there’s no implication that an individual identifies as racist overall - just that they recognize racism as being a major force in their own country’s founding). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/367 "2021-11-10T15:46:49Z")
> [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/53): > > I said _when_ they _don’t_ do that, he’s wrong to call them not part of the same nation. To clarify, if A and I agree we belong to the same nation, but A thinks that isn’t the same national identity as slaveowners in the 1820s, I think A has the wrong definition of national identity. But I still think A and I belong to the same nation. And if B thinks I belong to a different nation, but I think B and I belong to the same nation _and_ I think the law backs me up, I still think B and I belong to the same nation. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/368 "2021-11-10T16:01:13Z")
> [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/55): > > Categorization is useful for some purposes. Thinking that because it’s useful for some purposes those nice neat lines actually exist, and that they couldn’t just as well be drawn in other places or removed altogether for purposes for which that’s more useful, is a problem. I don’t deny the existence of alternatives, the choice to distinguish U.S. history from Irish history &etc. is entirely mine and follows from the bright-line definition of national identity I have used. The main argument of **Kimstu** seems to be, because U.S. history is broader than the history of the people who considered themselves part of the United States, my concept of national identity is wrong. My counterargument is that, in my opinion, U.S. history is a narrower topic than she implied; I doubled down. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/369 "2021-11-10T16:03:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > just that they recognize racism as being a major force in their own country’s founding If that’s all you’re trying to say, all I can say is that you haven’t been communicating that very well, and that saying that Americans must identify with Columbus and the conquistadors and must not identify with, say, the Haudenosaunee does not read to me as at all the same thing. > [@Max\_S](#): > > The main argument of **Kimstu** seems to be, because U.S. history is broader than the history of the people who considered themselves part of the United States, my concept of national identity is wrong. My counterargument is that, in my opinion, U.S. history is a narrower topic than she implied; I doubled down. Part of the problem with it is that you want to broaden it all the way to Columbus, but narrow it everywhere that applies to non-Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/370 "2021-11-10T16:37:58Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If that’s all you’re trying to say, all I can say is that you haven’t been communicating that very well That was my opinion on the Black Americans and slaveowners, in a tangent discussion with **MrDibble** , I believe. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > saying that Americans must identify with Columbus and the conquistadors and must not identify with, say, the Haudenosaunee I would say that Americans should identify the predecessors to the United States (the British colonies) and the historic U.S. itself as having been more like Columbus & the conquistadors than various indigenous peoples. In reference to the holiday that commemorates Columbus’s voyage and landfall, the United States is identified as a nation that followed Columbus’s footsteps - Europeans, not the indigenous people. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Part of the problem with it is that you want to broaden it all the way to Columbus, but narrow it everywhere that applies to non-Europeans. I don’t see why that would be a problem in and of itself. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/371 "2021-11-10T16:52:40Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That is just plain not true. (Maybe it is in, say, Japan. That I don’t know. But it is most certainly not true in the USA.) And yet another USA poster has said it _is_ true. Why should I believe you over them (and my own experiences of US culture)?. > [@](#): > > Because people buy Christmas presents doesn’t mean they’re not also celebrating a religious holiday. If they’re not _also_ engaging in actual religious activities, then it does. And if they only engage in minor religious activities and a lot more secular activities, then the holiday is still secular. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I am not actually saying that. 🙄 Do you see a moral difference between an oppressor and a resister to oppression, yes or no? > [@Max\_S](#): > > Indigenous People’s day celebrates a people/culture. …and their _history_. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I didn’t write that I know that. You can tell because it’s not presented as a quote. > [@](#): > > and don’t believe it. You _just_ believe that if they don’t identify with Europeans, they don’t share the same national identity as Americans who do… I fail to see the distinction. What is American “national identity”, if not that supposedly singular identity that defines a real American? If two people, one identifying with Europeans and one not, both have national identities, either one (or possibly both) must not have _the singular_ national identity. Or else you’ll have to admit that multiple national identities are in fact the reality. > [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/54): > > How tautological of you. I’m not right _because I’m right_. I’m right because that’s what the reality of tree toppers is. No amount of fear of accidentally getting Christian cooties from them is going to change that. > [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/54): > > I don’t buy what they peddle, and I don’t buy what you peddle, either. No addressing of your mapping of “worship” onto “oppression”, there, so I’m not exactly concerned about what you’re buying or not. > [@Max\_S](#): > > if B thinks I belong to a different nation, but I think B and I belong to the same nation The issue here is you have outright said B and you _don’t_ share a national identity. _B_ is the one who thinks they belong to the same nation as you. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/374 "2021-11-10T17:03:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you see a moral difference between an oppressor and a resister to oppression, yes or no? Yes. ETA: An oppressor is by definition unjust, whereas a resister to oppression is not necessarily just or unjust. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …and their _history_ . Okay, okay, I see your point. All three holidays involve history. But I don’t think that implies that all three holidays celebrate U.S. history, if that was the point you were making (I’m a bit confused again). > [@MrDibble](#): > > If two people, one identifying with Europeans and one not, both have national identities, either one (or possibly both) must not have _the singular_ national identity. Not necessarily. Both could have the same singular national identity without both acknowledging it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The issue here is you have outright said B and you _don’t_ share a national identity. _B_ is the one who thinks they belong to the same nation as you. I did not say B and I _have_ different national identities, but I did say B _thinks_ we belong to different nations. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/375 "2021-11-10T17:58:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But it’s a hijack in this thread. We can have this repeated annual discussion about whether Christmas is secular or religious in its own thread, like we do every year. Yup, hijack. But it was substantive enough that I’ve moved it to its own thread, with the blessing of the GD mods. I tried to leave any posts that overlapped in this thread, so there may be bits that look out of place. And I apologize for any confusion, or mistaken moving/not-moving on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/376 "2021-11-10T18:41:43Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Some people are wrong. I wrote that in the very sentence you quoted. This reminds me of a recent debate where @Exapno_Mapcase argued, because people disagree on the answers to any given religious question, religion can not exist. Leave me and your misstatements of what I said elsewhere out of your arguments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=17)