# Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323 "2021-10-11T21:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/81 "2021-10-14T14:46:30Z")
Okay. I was woefully wrong to think all the current Native American tribes came into being after 1492. But to the point I was making, > [@Max\_S](#): > > Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but if we were to scrap Columbus Day and leave Indigenous People’s Day in its place, I think the focus would be _post_ -Columbus. It is still my understanding that, outside of Mexico, indigenous peoples did not have a system of writing. There are still oral histories of course, but even with that I struggle to see how the focus of an Indigenous People’s Day could be on precolumbian history. The more recent five hundred years of history are better documented and, I would think, have significantly more bearing on the culture and identity of those peoples, thus on the holiday that celebrates those peoples. Furthermore we can go back to my earlier point, which despite my demonstrated ignorance on the history of tribes, remains undisturbed (at least in my opinion): > [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t consider the history of Native Americans to be a part of U.S. heritage to the same extent that I consider European history to be a part of it. In my opinion Native American heritage is U.S. heritage to the extent that we live on the land that they used to live and, when applicable, to the extent their people have assimilated and bring their heritage and culture with them. For the most part I identify with the early Europeans who settled in the Americas more than the indigenous peoples already here, who they were in conflict with. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/82 "2021-10-14T14:53:03Z")
Can’t speak to who you identify with. But the idea that the current USA can be mostly identified with the culture of the early European settlers, while it does indeed seem to be carefully taught in some schools, seems to me to have huge holes in it. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/83 "2021-10-14T14:57:50Z")
Can you elaborate on those “holes”? I re-read your earlier replies just a minute ago and that’s not the impression I got. I took it to mean it is a shame Americans often forget how horribly we (the Europeans) treated Native Americans, not so much that Americans should/do _identify_ with the Native Americans rather than the Europeans in those histories. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/84 "2021-10-14T15:04:26Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The more recent five hundred years of history are better documented and, I would think, have significantly more bearing on the culture and identity of those peoples, The elements of their cultures that a lot of them choose to celebrate predate European contact - not necessarily pre-1492, but that specific date’s actually irrelevant for this issue. It would be a mistake to hold to Columbus, specifically, when he had jack to do with the USA. If they did choose to concentrate on aspects of their culture that predate Europeans, who are you to say that they’re celebrating wrong? And if that’s largely what makes it to the rest of society as a celebration of Indigenous Peoples Day, what standing would you have to oppose that? Would it be the “Juneteenth is the wrong day” kind of silliness we’ve seen here before? Now, I’m not saying an Indigenous People’s Day should _ignore_ post-contact history. But why on Hastur’s blighted Earth would it ignore the thousands of years before that? Ignorance like that is what you want to _counter_, so future generations don’t act surprised when they learn that most North Americans were farmers not HGs, or that Cahokia existed, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/85 "2021-10-14T15:06:19Z")
I agree with you here, I have no objection to anything in this post. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/86 "2021-10-14T15:26:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I didn’t say it was unimportant. I asked what motivates you to feel _fear_ specifically, as opposed to some other emotion. As you’ve laid it out above, honestly it feels like you fear the loss of seeing yourself as part of the conquering group, which is kinda… ewww. > > And honestly, if Columbus Day is changed to Indigenous People’s Day, do you really think Columbus will be forgotten? He’ll still be _very_ much in that story, just not as a hero. Rereading the topic, I realize I never addressed this. You are correct sir, my fear is that the American people no longer identify with Columbus, the conquistadores, or potentially the British, French, and Dutch forces that subjugated indigenous peoples in the early chapters of our history. I _do_ think Columbus the individual will fall out of our collective memory as someone to be identified with, and I think identifying with Columbus and the Europeans who followed in his mold - the good and the bad - is a core part of the national identity. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/87 "2021-10-14T15:55:20Z")
I’m wondering how Indigenous Peoples Day could be commemorated by anyone not on the Nations’ rolls while avoiding accusations of cultural appropriation, offensive inaccuracy, etc. Accusations mainly from other whites desperate to prove their “I’m not like the rest” credibility. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/88 "2021-10-14T17:07:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I think identifying with Columbus and the Europeans who followed in his mold - the good and the bad - is a core part of the is a core part of the national identity. So you’re saying the core part of the national identity is… white identity? And you’re afraid of losing it? If you know any people who aren’t white, I’d highly suggest you run this theory by them and see how it goes. Perhaps from a safe distance or behind some sort of barrier. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/89 "2021-10-14T17:08:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Can you elaborate on those “holes”? Do you seriously think that we’ve got anything like the culture that the first European settlers did? They wouldn’t recognize the place. The culture of the USA has been influenced by people from all over the world, from every continent, yes including the original cultures of this one. > [@Max\_S](#): > > my fear is that the American people no longer identify with Columbus, the conquistadores, or potentially the British, French, and Dutch forces that subjugated indigenous peoples in the early chapters of our history. Why on earth do you _fear_ that we shouldn’t identify with those people? You _want_ us to identify with cultures that subjugated others? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/90 "2021-10-14T18:56:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > So you’re saying the core part of the national identity is… white identity? And you’re afraid of losing it? Insofar as identifying with the aforementioned people is ‘white identity’, yes. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/91 "2021-10-14T19:23:23Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The culture of the USA has been influenced by people from all over the world, from **every continent** The influence from Antarcticans[\*] has been especially profound. But do we have a special day for them? . [\*] They’re mostly flightless waterfowl ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/92 "2021-10-14T19:26:46Z")
All right, all right, I forgot about Antarctica! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/93 "2021-10-14T19:27:38Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > But do we have a special day for them? April 25. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/94 "2021-10-14T19:27:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Insofar as identifying with the aforementioned people is ‘white identity’, yes. So in an America where 40% of its people aren’t white, you are afraid that white identity will lose its place of supremacy? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/95 "2021-10-14T19:27:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > > So you’re saying the core part of the national identity is… white identity? And you’re afraid of losing it? > > Insofar as identifying with the aforementioned people is ‘white identity’, yes. And not only white identity, but the specific kind of white identity that relies on subjugating other people. You wanna think that one over? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/96 "2021-10-14T19:45:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > All right, all right, I forgot about Antarctica! Antarctican-Americans actually appreciate you including them. All too often, the bottommost continent is explicitly excluded. Try googling “every continent except Antarctica”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@dtilque](#): > > > > But do we have a special day for them? > > April 25. ([World Penguin Day](http://abcreads.blogspot.com/2014/04/world-penguin-day.html)) Which, of course, needs to be made a national holiday, too. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/97 "2021-10-14T20:51:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > So in an America where 40% of its people aren’t white, you are afraid that white identity will lose its place of supremacy? I’m specifically talking about people looking at the history of the U.S. and saying, “we aren’t those colonists that did horrible things to the Native Americans, _that wasn’t us_”. I wouldn’t describe that as _white identity holding a place of supremacy_, but if that is what you would call it, then yes, I’ll own it. You really had to twist those words out of me, and in _any_ other place I would assume you are mocking me rather than having an honest debate. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/98 "2021-10-14T21:02:02Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do you seriously think that we’ve got anything like the culture that the first European settlers did? They wouldn’t recognize the place. > > The culture of the USA has been influenced by people from all over the world, from every continent, yes including the original cultures of this one. I think we have had a misunderstanding at some point, when I opined that those early Europeans are part of our national identity I did not mean to imply we share their morals today. Only that we, as a nation today, literally _identify_ with them: their history is our own history, _we_ were not the ones being handed smallpox-infested blankets but were the ones handing them out, _we_ were not the ones who lost our lands but were the ones driving Native Americans out, &etc. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/99 "2021-10-14T21:26:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Only that we, as a nation today, literally _identify_ with them: their history is our own history, _we_ were not the ones being handed smallpox-infested blankets but were the ones handing them out, _we_ were not the ones who lost our lands but were the ones driving Native Americans out, &etc. I think I speak for many of us when I ask “what do you mean by ‘we’?” [https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/75476988/tonto-we-need-to-stop-them-what-do-you-mean-we-white-man.jpg](https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/75476988/tonto-we-need-to-stop-them-what-do-you-mean-we-white-man.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/100 "2021-10-14T21:37:36Z")
I think what Max is, clumsily (and rarely so!) trying to say that the history of ‘America’ as a country has mostly been taught within the ‘Western Civilization’ framework and not the ‘Five Nations’, or other Native Nation’s, framework. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=6)