# Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323 "2021-10-11T21:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/121 "2021-10-26T00:10:20Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Tuscaloosa (who was a person) I must have misremembered the name of the town (Mabila), sorry. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/122 "2021-10-26T00:16:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why would you then, as a modern, presumably empathetic human, choose to identify with the oppressors who are unrelated to you in any meaningful way? I consider it part of the national identity, and part of being an American (in my opinion) means I’m proud of the good things my country or its precursors did / does, and ashamed of the bad things. > [@MrDibble](#): > > This is very strongly implying Native Americans aren’t really Americans. The way I see it, and I could be mistaken, is that we have a sort of dual sovereignty system. Then there are more numerous individuals who may identify as Native American but aren’t officially members of a Native American tribe - more power to them. My question was about the U.S. national identity, and has no bearing on their Native American identity. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/123 "2021-10-26T00:17:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But I don’t see how an Indigenous People’s Day holiday will particularly work toward that end; certainly not any better than Columbus Day This is a ridiculous argument. You’re essentially saying that having a holiday that celebrates someone who never reached the American mainland, was from a country that wasn’t involved in the early history of America, sailed under the flag of a country that was a strong rival to the Europeans that actually settled in what became the United States, enslaved, tortured, and killed the people he met in the new world, is somehow a better way to teach about indigenous peoples than a holiday that actually, you know, celebrates the people you are trying to celebrate. I think the US public is capable of making the distinction, although it might be difficult in some communities. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/124 "2021-10-26T00:42:00Z")
It seems I’m going to have to be more direct and risk offending. You appear to be viewing the US as a white country. You are acting like 60% or so of the country is all that counts. This is absolutely not true. The history of all Americans is American history, regardless of where they originally came from. The idea that a particular ethnicity matters more because there are more of them is not good at all. That idea is precisely what leads to racism. It is precisely why Native concerns were ignored, and why they were oppressed. The white settlers were happy, so no one cared about the Trail of Tears. The idea that white history is what matters is exactly what we’re trying to change. The whole problem with Columbus Day is the focus on White history. We act like this guy who was a racist asshole even for his day is worthy of honor because he started the immigration of white people to the Americas. While l don’t think you are a bad person, you keep repeating a lot of the stuff that is considered the problem to be fixed. Even the fact that you’d not heard of Indigenous People’s Day despite the Columbus Day controversy says you were in a bubble. You’ve admitted as much before: you’ve said this board is one of the only places you ever talk with people who are different than you. Columbus Day is indicative of the white monoculture bias that permeates our culture. It celebrates a colonizer who made Natives into slaves and beat them. It plays into the mythology of America, and not the reality. Indigenous People’s Day talks about how Natives have been harmed by colonialism. Sure, it also celebrates Native cultures, but it doesn’t whitewash away the horrors put upon them. In short, your ideas about Columbus Day are exactly what Indigenous People’s Day is trying to combat. We are all Americans, and all of this is our history. Columbus is not someone to celebrate, but the guy who started the mistreatment of our ancestors who were here first. It’s like having Nazi Day to honor WWII vets. No, we focus on the group worthy of honor. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/125 "2021-10-26T01:41:22Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > That leaves Thanksgiving and Independence Day to remind us that European colonists are a core part of our national heritage. A feat that can be accomplished by no less than three federally recognized holidays, and through absolutely no other means whatsoever, including just looking around and noticed all the white people all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/126 "2021-10-26T03:18:41Z")
You guys aren’t going to be able to convince @Max_S that White Genocide isn’t real. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/127 "2021-10-26T03:48:52Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But Americans with Native American ancestry do not constitute a comparable _part_ of America, so far as population goes. The history of a nation is not supposed to be merely a reflection of the nation’s current demographics. Just because more than 70% of Americans today have European ancestry doesn’t mean that American history needs to be more than 70% about European-Americans. There were huge swathes of the country that remained effectively under Native control until nearly the end of the 19th century. Land use, hunting and so on by Native Americans fundamentally shaped the environment of North America that European settlers then modified further. Just because a dominant majority culture prefers to talk about itself doesn’t mean that the history of marginalized cultures isn’t important. > [@Max\_S](#): > > My opinion is that conquistadors and colonists are closer to the United States’ national identity than the Six Nations, the Cherokee, or any other indigenous people. Well sure, the conquistadors and colonists are the ones who constructed that “national identity” in their own image. White Europeans are the ones who got to write the laws and the books and the essays that they considered to “define” the United States, because they’re the ones who seized power and firmly relegated other peoples to “inferior” status. But history, real history, is about more than “national identity”. It’s supposed to talk about what actually happened, not just what happened to members of the dominant culture or what those members considered important. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/128 "2021-10-26T05:45:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I consider it part of the national identity You consider being European inextricably part of the national identity? Are you at all _aware_ of what that sounds like? > [@Max\_S](#): > > The way I see it, and I could be mistaken, is that we have a sort of dual sovereignty system The existence of tribal sovereignty takes nothing away from the American-ness of Native Americans. > [@Max\_S](#): > > My question was about the U.S. national identity, and has no bearing on their Native American identity. Again wrongly implying Native American identity _can’t be_ American identity. Also wrongly implying _one_ US national identity. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/129 "2021-10-26T17:41:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > How do you celebrate Columbus Day anyway? It’s not a holiday with an education component. It has few rituals, and fewer meaningful historic context. During my school years there was definitely an educational component. Each year the history teacher would talk a little about Columbus and the early history of the Americas, then we would have the day itself off. After my school years I have never “celebrated” the holiday with a day off work or a party or anything. There is probably a water cooler discussion or offhand remark with a customer or something, and there is always something in the news about it, often featuring the debate over whether to keep the holiday and again, the history of Columbus and early history of the Americas. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/130 "2021-10-26T17:53:00Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do you seriously think we’re in danger of forgetting that? Yes, of course. I doubt most Americans remember all thirteen colonies had slavery at some point, or that most Americans can even [name three of the thirteen original states](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2018/10/11/three-myths-that-explain-why-americans-dont-know-much-about-history/). > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do you seriously think that nobody can identify with anyone they’re not directly descended from? The opposite, actually. I was saying Americans (or specifically, me) identify with people they are not directly descended from. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And Native Americans are American. “Identifies as both American and Native American” is either terrible phrasing, or indicative of a whole lot of (possibly unconscious) prejudice. I think I had the phrasing right, but I don’t see why that would be _prejudiced_. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/131 "2021-10-26T18:04:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Do you seriously think we’re in danger of forgetting that? > > Yes, of course. I doubt most Americans remember all thirteen colonies had slavery at some point, or that most Americans can even [name three of the thirteen original states](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2018/10/11/three-myths-that-explain-why-americans-dont-know-much-about-history/). What does that have to do with Columbus? And how would celebrating Columbus Day help it? > [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Do you seriously think that nobody can identify with anyone they’re not directly descended from? > > The opposite, actually. I was saying Americans (or specifically, me) identify with people they are not directly descended from. You said > [@Max\_S](#): > > I would think around 98% of the country would not identify as the Native Americans under any circumstance, because less than 2% of our population has Native American ancestry. How on earth is that not saying that people can only relate with those they’re not descended from? Or did you mean that you think people can relate to Europeans they’re not descended from, but not to Native Americans they’re not descended from? In which case, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/132 "2021-10-26T18:36:01Z")
Of course. All [white] men are brothers. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/133 "2021-10-26T18:57:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Each year the history teacher would talk a little about Columbus and the early history of the Americas, then we would have the day itself off. Columbus has almost nothing to do with the history of the United States as we know it today. The story of the native Americans IS part of the history of the United States, and an ongoing part of the culture today. Just drop the Columbus part and talk about what it relevant to our history. No need to celebrate some confused explorer from Genoa who thought he’d reached Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/134 "2021-10-26T20:16:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > But I don’t see how an Indigenous People’s Day holiday will particularly work toward that end; certainly not any better than Columbus Day > > This is a ridiculous argument. You’re essentially saying that having a holiday that celebrates someone who never reached the American mainland, was from a country that wasn’t involved in the early history of America, sailed under the flag of a country that was a strong rival to the Europeans that actually settled in what became the United States, enslaved, tortured, and killed the people he met in the new world, is somehow **a better way to teach about indigenous peoples** than a holiday that actually, you know, celebrates the people you are trying to celebrate. You must have misunderstood my argument. I did not claim it was a better way to teach about indigenous peoples, that part of my response to **kenobi\_65** was about “the tragic history of Native Americans”. In the years between Columbus’s voyage in 1492 and the establishment of Jamestown in 1607, the indigenous population of the Americas was _literally_ [decimated - from around 60 million to 6 million people](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379118307261). This was a fact taught in school. The particulars of Columbus’s voyage, his profiteering character plus the discovery of gold and the exploitation/subjugation of the peoples he encountered, lead _directly_ to the conquistadores and epidemics that followed in the sixteenth century, including notably for the U.S., the near-total destruction of the Mississippian culture and a strong distrust of Europeans in surviving native populations. Spanish efforts at colonization and exploration - starting with Columbus himself - set a precedent for all future European colonization efforts, including those by the English and in spite of their rivalry. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/135 "2021-10-26T20:41:36Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The particulars of Columbus’s voyage, his profiteering character plus the discovery of gold and the exploitation/subjugation of the peoples he encountered, lead _directly_ to the conquistadores and epidemics that followed in the sixteenth century, including notably for the U.S., the near-total destruction of the Mississippian culture and a strong distrust of Europeans in surviving native populations So, let’s name a holiday after him? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/136 "2021-10-26T21:16:32Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In the years between Columbus’s voyage in 1492 and the establishment of Jamestown in 1607, the indigenous population of the Americas was _literally_ [decimated - from around 60 million to 6 million people](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379118307261). _This was a fact taught in school._ Hmmm. I went to high school in Atlanta, Georgia, in the 1980s and never heard of it. Wasn’t even mentioned. I wonder whose experience is more universal, and/or if it matters when one went to HS? _Poll ([view on site](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/136))_ ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/137 "2021-10-26T21:19:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You appear to be viewing the US as a white country. You are acting like 60% or so of the country is all that counts. This is absolutely not true. I would distinguish between 1. saying the U.S. national identity is rooted in those early European colonists/explorers/conquistadors, to the exclusion of the indigenous peoples they conflicted with, and 2. “viewing the U.S. as a white country” > [@BigT](#): > > The history of all Americans is American history, regardless of where they originally came from. Assuming you meant ‘the history of all Americans, regardless of where they originally came from or how many Americans share that history, is part of our national history’, I disagree on principle. The Great Famine in Ireland is not American history despite, WAG, one in ten Americans being of Irish heritage. The French and Indian war _is_ U.S. history; however, the U.S. is properly identified with the British side and _not_ the French, regardless of how many Americans may have ancestry on the French/Canadian side. > [@BigT](#): > > While l don’t think you are a bad person, you keep repeating a lot of the stuff that is considered **the problem to be fixed**. […] Columbus Day is indicative of **the white monoculture bias** that permeates our culture. You _may_ be on to something here. My conception of nationalism is, in fact, monocultural… and my concept of national history is predominantly “white” on account of the fact that most Americans were (and are) “white”, and that the origin of this country comes from the English tradition. I do not yet see these as _problems to be fixed_; they seem appropriate to me. But assuming “monoculture bias” is a problem, then yes, it does make sense to replace Columbus Day and nothing I have written thus far counters that argument. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/138 "2021-10-26T21:22:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I went to high school in Atlanta, Georgia, in the 1980s and never heard of it. Wasn’t even mentioned. Possibly because Jared Diamond’s popular book came out in the 90s? My teacher(s) touted it as a _modern_ understanding but now established fact. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/139 "2021-10-26T21:25:33Z")
Hence the poll. Though, to be fair, I doubt it’s getting taught today, either, unless it’s guaranteed to be on a standardized test. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/140 "2021-10-26T21:36:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > There were huge swathes of the country that remained effectively under Native control until nearly the end of the 19th century. Land use, hunting and so on by Native Americans fundamentally shaped the environment of North America that European settlers then modified further. Those Native Americans either assimilated (sometimes by force), or died. At the point of assimilation their history becomes our own, only then do I identify them as “us”, meaning part of the same nation that I belong to. Otherwise their history is ours only so far as our nations were allied or _their_ actions influenced _our_ history. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But history, real history, is about more than “national identity”. You are right on all points with this, but I would distinguish between history in the general sense and national history, and also between a commemoration or celebration and a national holiday. Reinforcing the _national_ identity is an appropriate purpose for a _national_ holiday, in my opinion. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323.md?page=8)