# Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323 "2021-10-11T21:56:49Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 400

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**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/400 "2021-11-23T00:04:45Z")

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> **Recap (click to show/hide)**
>
> > [@Telemark](#):
> >
> > Are you saying that a national identity that includes descendants of slaves and descendants of slave-owners is singular?
> 
> > [@Max\_S](#):
> >
> > Yes, of course. If a slave-owner’s descendent and a slave’s descendent did not share the same national identity, they would not belong to the same nation.
> 
> > [@MrDibble](#):
> >
> > Blacks who don’t identify with slaveowners aren’t real Americans, gotcha.
> 
> > [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/52):
> >
> > FFS, dude, you’re expecting non-Christian Americans to treat the iconography of Christian angels etc. as a neutral de-religionized element of a shared secular holiday, even though in your next breath you can point out how Max\_S is wrong in expecting Black Americans to treat the iconography of the white Founding Fathers as a neutral de-racialized element of shared cultural identity?
> 
> > [@Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/53):
> >
> > That’s not what I was saying. I said _when_ they _don’t_ do that, he’s wrong to call them not part of the same nation.
> 
> > [@Max\_S](#):
> >
> > To clarify, if A and I agree we belong to the same nation, but A thinks that isn’t the same national identity as slaveowners in the 1820s, I think A has the wrong definition of national identity. But I still think A and I belong to the same nation.
> > 
> > And if B thinks I belong to a different nation, but I think B and I belong to the same nation _and_ I think the law backs me up, I still think B and I belong to the same nation.
> 
> > [@MrDibble](#):
> >
> > The issue here is you have outright said B and you _don’t_ share a national identity. _B_ is the one who thinks they belong to the same nation as you.
> 
> > [@Max\_S](#):
> >
> > I did not say B and I _have_ different national identities, but I did say B _thinks_ we belong to different nations.
> 
> > [@MrDibble](#):
> >
> > No, you said _you think_ B belongs to a different nation:
> > 
> > > [@Max\_S](#):
> > >
> > > If a slave-owner’s descendent and a slave’s descendent did not share the same national identity, they would not belong to the same nation
> 
> > [@Max\_S](#):
> >
> > What you quoted relies on a premise: two people do not share the same national identity. That premise is denied in example B, so far as I am concerned:
> > 
> > > And if B thinks I belong to a different nation, **but I think B and I belong to the same nation _and_ I think the law backs me up** , I still think B and I belong to the same nation.

> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> So, circular reasoning, then.

Where? Circular reasoning involves the conclusion being a premise in its own argument, but I haven’t done that here.

🤔

You must think ‘a Black who doesn’t identify with slaveowner descendants’ is the same as ‘a descendant of slaves who doesn’t share the same national identity as a slave-owner descendant’. They are different, to me.

I don’t mean Black vs descendant of slaves. I mean, ‘_doesn’t identify with X_’ is different from ‘_doesn’t share the same identity as X_’. See the second half of [post #397](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/397) and the last paragraph of [post #390](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/390).

~Max

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