# Come All Ye Secularists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861 "2010-12-12T05:51:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/81 "2010-12-15T12:27:43Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > MK Ultra was science without morals, Zyklon B testing was education without morals. Bullshit, science can only tell us what we _can_ do. And to worship its goals is folly. Did you mean to reply to another post? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/82 "2010-12-15T14:25:23Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Stop saying religious folk, when you mean the lunatic fringes! > > Science and religion can and do coexist in the majority of people in the western world today. America seems to be full of lunatic religious folk who believe in creation, in most sane countries we don’t see it that way. Maybe separating the state and religion causes more people to have loony ideas? > > Science is valid in explaining the physical world, beyond that not so good. Sorry but I don’t mean just the lunatic fringe. Each and every single religious leader in the world, from the small town preacher to the most exalted grand poobah, makes claims about the world and their knowledge about it with no more real experience than you or me claiming that a fairy tale is true. All too many of them actually claim to take instructions from a supernatural being. Seriously. The lunatic fringe at least have the courtesy to be obvious in their lunacy. And just because (good) science limits itself to studying the physical world doesn’t imply that a supernatural world exists and, even if one does exist, it certainly doesn’t mean that whatever religious leader you like can perceive and interact with that world. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/83 "2010-12-15T14:43:19Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Sorry but I don’t mean just the lunatic fringe. Each and every single religious leader in the world, from the small town preacher to the most exalted grand poobah, makes claims about the world and their knowledge about it with no more real experience than you or me claiming that a fairy tale is true. Wrong. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/84 "2010-12-15T14:57:15Z")
Can you point to some who don’t? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/85 "2010-12-15T15:00:41Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Wrong. Sorry. Do tell. Who is this religious leader who sticks only to demonstrable facts? I may be willing to convert if you know someone who actually communicates with God and can demonstrate that it is anything other than a one way conversation. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/86 "2010-12-15T15:08:04Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Do tell. Who is this religious leader who sticks only to demonstrable facts? Certainly those in my congregation (where all three rabbis are avowed non-believers) and pretty much everyone I’ve met in the Reform, Reconstructionist and Liberal Judaism movements. If I have met someone active in those movements who believes in a transcendental god, they’ve been too embarrassed to say so out loud. 😃 ETA: Basically, there’s a whole world of religious humanism out there that your claim about “each and every single religious leader in the world” is ignoring, not to mention the religions that focus on practice and either aren’t fussed about, try to downplay or actively disavow belief in the supernatural/transcendent. We’ve been over this before on the boards a few times but it still seems to take people by surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/87 "2010-12-15T15:35:05Z")
Well, that certainly took me by surprise. Espescially the part where you call a movement a **religion** , where it doesn’t involve belief in the supernatural/transcendent. How does that work? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/88 "2010-12-15T15:50:26Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, that certainly took me by surprise. > > Espescially the part where you call a movement a **religion** , where it doesn’t involve belief in the supernatural/transcendent. > > How does that work? To my mind UU’s are certainly a “religious” movement, but many of its leaders are atheists and humanists. It seems you are using a definition of religion that requires belief in the supernatural, which is certainly one of many possible definitions, but which sort of begs the question about whether religion and science are compatible. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/89 "2010-12-15T15:51:13Z")
Ah, I see. We disagree on the use of the word “religious” I guess. I confess to having a hard time wrapping my mind around a religion that makes no claim of any kind about anything supernatural. That sounds more like a club or society to me. Perhaps you could suggest a (nice) word that I can use for groups that believe in the supernatural, you know they exist, so I won’t keep tripping over all the people who are religious but have no interest in any non-earthly reality. I’ll use that word in the future. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/90 "2010-12-15T16:02:05Z")
I tend to use “believers” to describe people who believe in things and “religious” to people who practice (i.e. doing stuff) religion. In my experience, they sometimes overlap but also exist on their own. I’m sure there are also some believers who don’t practice religion, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/91 "2010-12-15T16:11:33Z")
People who believe in a god would be called Theists. Religion is (typically) a combination of beliefs and practice. As **SecondJudith** points out, there are many believers that are not religious (my mom being one). Of course, I would say the vast majority of the religious are also theists in some form. But there are exceptions, including entire religious movements. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/92 "2010-12-15T16:25:54Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Indeed, the answers aren’t answers at all. You can still ask “Why is there an afterlife?” “What is the purpose of this thing you call a soul?”, “What will we do all day in this Heaven of yours?” and religion will not have any answers either. And when they have ‘answers’ about the other stuff they all differ anyway. You either will be/won’t be going to heaven/not heaven because you are/are not Jewish/Protestant/Catholic/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist if you do good things/believe the right things. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/93 "2010-12-15T17:19:57Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Certainly those in my congregation (where all three rabbis are avowed non-believers) and pretty much everyone I’ve met in the Reform, Reconstructionist and Liberal Judaism movements. If I have met someone active in those movements who believes in a transcendental god, they’ve been too embarrassed to say so out loud. 😃 > > ETA: Basically, there’s a whole world of religious humanism out there that your claim about “each and every single religious leader in the world” is ignoring, not to mention the religions that focus on practice and either aren’t fussed about, try to downplay or actively disavow belief in the supernatural/transcendent. We’ve been over this before on the boards a few times but it still seems to take people by surprise. Lenny Bruce: “Reform shuls. Reform Rabbis. So Reform they’re ashamed they’re Jewish.” When I was a kid the reform rabbis still believed in God. (Just not in Hebrew. 😃 ) I respect that the reform guide to the Bible now accepts that the Davidic Kingdom really didn’t exist. But how soon will it be that this branch becomes purely about the celebration of the tradition and not the actual belief. Our traditions are worthy of celebrating, but is it a religion any more? I got married in the Ethical Culture Society, which was a Jewish spinoff and strictly secular, but of course humanist. They didn’t consider themselves a religion, except for tax and marrying purposes. Is that where you are going, and if you are, are you going to wind up in the same atheist position I’m in? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/94 "2010-12-15T18:29:46Z")
To me, what **SecondJudith** describes sounds akin to a prayer during a historical reenactment. It may be _religious_, but it’s not religion. From the OED: > [@](#): > > religion(re·li·gion) > > Pronunciation:/riˈlijən, rəˈlɪʤən/ > noun > > ``` > * the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power , especially a personal God or gods:ideas about the relationship between science and religion > * a particular system of faith and worship:the world's great religions > * a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance:consumerism is the new religion > > ``` Even Buddhists believe in a supreme power, although they don’t necessary ascribe the quality of _being_ to it. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/95 "2010-12-15T20:19:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > To me, what **SecondJudith** describes sounds akin to a prayer during a historical reenactment. It may be _religious_, but it’s not religion. I would say it’s rituals, not religion. Nothing wrong with that but maybe, **SecondJudith** , you’re just an atheist but too embarrassed to say so out loud. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/96 "2010-12-16T00:32:27Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, that certainly took me by surprise. > > Espescially the part where you call a movement a **religion** , where it doesn’t involve belief in the supernatural/transcendent. > > How does that work? Look it is a fair question, the people who have a firm dogma about their god or whatever generally organize themselves into a nice little religion. The people [like me] who do not pretend to have any answers are shunned by the major religions. Do I know that there is a god? Nup, do I believe there is something beyond us? Yes, but how do I know? I just do. Call me irrational, illogical or stupid doesn’t change what I believe. It can’t because IMO it is beyond me or you to truly understand it. What a lot of people believe is that science is science and it is right. That’s me. Evolution etc etc are all facts that sit quite comfortably with me but I feel that there is something beyond, now if science one day explains that [which it may do] then I will accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/97 "2010-12-16T02:03:37Z")
> [@ram16](#): > > There’s no such thing as freedom of religion without freedom from religion. They are opposite sides of the same coin. Doesn’t anybody remember why the first colonists left England in the first place? It was to escape state sponsored religion. Those of you advocating religion in government only do so if it’s your religion. Don’t think so, then lets put “IN ALA WE TRUST” on our money. See what I mean? It wouldn’t matter to me because all superstitions are equal to me. Didn’t 8 years of “W” teach us anything? It’s spelled “Allah”. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/98 "2010-12-16T03:44:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > To me, what **SecondJudith** describes sounds akin to a prayer during a historical reenactment. It may be _religious_, but it’s not religion. From the OED: That’s perfectly fine, but it’s not necessarily the only valid definition of “religion”. [Random House](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion) has: > [@](#): > > 1. > > a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. > 2. > a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. > 3. > the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. The first clearly allows for religion that _doesn’t_ require a superhuman agency. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/99 "2010-12-16T04:27:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, that certainly took me by surprise. > > Espescially the part where you call a movement a **religion** , where it doesn’t involve belief in the supernatural/transcendent. > > How does that work? Communism, at least the Stalinist version, is pretty definitely a religion (with hierarchy and schisms and inquisitions, yet), that does not involve belief in the supernatural/transcendent, unless the historical dialectic counts as “transcendent.” ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861/100 "2010-12-16T09:59:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Communism, at least the Stalinist version, is pretty definitely a religion (with hierarchy and schisms and inquisitions, yet), that does not involve belief in the supernatural/transcendent, unless the historical dialectic counts as “transcendent.” It’s not hierarchy, schisms or “inquisitions” that define something to be a religion though. I’ve always found the claim that fascism and communism are actually religions to be far over the top. They do have similarities, and quite a few people believed in their dogma’s as they would believe in a religious dogma. Like f.i. that all workers would eventually live in a workers ‘paradise’. Certainly there was also a heavy emphasis on symbolisms and rituals. Yet these things just remain the _trappings_. Not a belief in something super-natural, which remains the definition of a religion. To me. Having said that, there were of course plenty of adherants to these belief-systems that did see some of it as super-natural. Who viewed the Führer as an actual savior with super power/knowledge, or the Soviet girl that would say aloud the Komsomol credo to Brezjnevs poster, every night she went to bed. Knowing that he could see her. That is the closest will you get to an actual equivalence. There will allways be stupid people, and those that know they are ignorant and trust those above them to know everything. Kind of like the awe for that man in the white coat with that magical implement around his neck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-all-ye-secularists/563861.md?page=6)