# Come on! Let's have some proof, already, that "false voters" really are a problem! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125 "2006-09-25T21:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/1 "2006-09-25T21:28:03Z")
I’ve brought this question up many times in threads on [voter ID cards](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=389084) and in [other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315502) on election-reform issues, and I’ve never yet gotten a straight answer backed up with cites. What evidence is there that voting by “false voters” (noncitizens or persons otherwise legally ineligible to vote) has been a real problem in any American election in the past 20 years? Has there been any election anywhere where that is documented to have happened, in numbers significant enough to affect or potentially affect the outcome? Many Pub/conservative Dopers seem to just assume it, but they never offer any proof. (N.B.: Urban machine politics are mostly a thing of the past in this country. Please **don’t** bring up the old horror stories about dead people “voting” in Chicago or wherever, unless you can come up with a cite for it happening within the past 20 years. **Captain Amazing,** in post #46 of [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315502) thread, did come up with a newspaper article, but the link is now dead and I can’t remember the details.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/2 "2006-09-25T21:53:14Z")
You might find this interesting…here’s a report by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement from 1998, looking at voter fraud (as part of an analysis on “Motor Voter”). It comes to the conclusion that the biggest form the fraud takes in Florida is absentee ballot fraud: [http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/publications/voter\_fraud.asp](http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/publications/voter_fraud.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/3 "2006-09-26T09:11:56Z")
I recently asked this same question in [General Questions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=389057). I don’t believe that anyone provided anything much more than unsubstantiated rumors about voter identity fraud in the U.S. **Dr. Paprika** brought up an interesting result about the inability or unwillingness (or apathy) of voters in Toronto to provide documentation of citizenship in response to a mail request. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/4 "2006-09-26T12:57:59Z")
There’s about as much proof of voter fraud as there is of Diebold-induced election fraud. Lots of claims that it “can” happen, not a lick of proof that it ever did. Won’t stop people from complaining about it, though. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/5 "2006-09-26T13:49:40Z")
I’d like to see a nationwide audit of the voter registration rolls. Pick a sample large enough to be statistically significant, and verify that they are eligible to vote. That would provide some real information. Even if we had voter IDs, it wouldn’t solve the problems with absentee ballot fraud. There were good reasons for the old restrictive rules on absentee ballots. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/6 "2006-09-26T14:00:00Z")
I’ve always believed that most “fraud” is simply people voting in a district where they used to live, but haven’t updated their registration. For example, when I was in college, I’d move frequently yet not update my address with the registrar of voters. I’d just go back to the polling place I’d always gone to and vote. Was that ‘fraud?’ ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/7 "2006-09-26T14:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] I’ve always believed that most “fraud” is simply people voting in a district where they used to live, but haven’t updated their registration. For example, when I was in college, I’d move frequently yet not update my address with the registrar of voters. I’d just go back to the polling place I’d always gone to and vote. Was that ‘fraud?’ [/QUOTE] Depends on who you voted for 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/8 "2006-09-26T14:45:16Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Come on! Let’s have some proof, already, that “false voters” really are a problem [/QUOTE] That’s a good point. It’s the real voters that appear to be the biggest problem. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/9 "2006-09-26T15:10:19Z")
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It just makes good sense to have a secure voting system. I don’t think it’s a matter of “prove this is a real problem first”. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/10 "2006-09-26T15:46:34Z")
[How about this?](http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=324933) > [@](#): > > Inquiry finds evidence of fraud in election > Cast ballots outnumber voters by 4,609 > … > Investigators said Tuesday they found clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee, including more than 200 cases of felons voting illegally and more than 100 people who voted twice, used fake names or false addresses or voted in the name of a dead person. > > Officials said charges will be filed in coming weeks, as individual cases are reviewed and more evidence is gathered. > > Nonetheless, it is likely that many - perhaps most - of those who committed fraud won’t face prosecution because city records are so sloppy that it will be difficult to establish cases that will stand up in court. > … > And even now, three months after the investigation, officials have not been able to close a gap of 7,000 votes, with more ballots cast than voters listed. Officials said the gap remains at 4,609. > … > Tuesday’s announcement could breathe new life into the Republican-backed photo ID debate, which did not survive a veto from Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle and might instead eventually go to voters as a proposed constitutional amendment. > > A photo ID requirement might have caught some of the problems highlighted in Tuesday’s preliminary report. It notes cases of people voting in the name of a dead person or as someone else. Investigators located some people listed as voting who said they did not vote. > > In other cases, according to Tuesday’s report, people “registered and voted with identities and addresses that cannot in any way be linked to a real person.” Thousands more people voted than there were voters in the district. I’d say that’s pretty strong evidence of some kind of voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/11 "2006-09-26T15:51:04Z")
[QUOTE=Common Tater] An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It just makes good sense to have a secure voting system. I don’t think it’s a matter of “prove this is a real problem first”. [/QUOTE] Demonstrate that the current system is insecure. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/12 "2006-09-26T15:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] [How about this?](http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=324933)Thousands more people voted than there were voters in the district. I’d say that’s pretty strong evidence of some kind of voter fraud. [/QUOTE] How is that possible if poll workers are doing their jobs? They have a list of registered voters. You come in, vote, your name gets crossed off the list. How is it possible to end up with more than the amount of registered voters? ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/13 "2006-09-26T16:11:40Z")
OK, how about this - it may just be an anectdotal Wyoming issue but I doubt it. Convicted felons are not allowed to vote or serve on juries in Wyoming. The jury lists are pulled from voter registrations. In my last three Jury Trials, there were between 6 and 13 people called for jury duty from the voter rolls who were convicted felons. I have prosecuted illegal aliens who have voted. (just to clarify, I was prosecuting them for something else such as DUI, and a records search indicated they were on the votor rolls). Three weeks ago I had a court hearing concerning the purging of voter from the rolls because they were voting in the wrong state (they don’t live here, but want to appear to be Wyoming citizens in order to hunt here.) Purely partisan, but there is this collection of articles: [http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/cat\_voter\_fraud.html](http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/cat_voter_fraud.html). and on the other side: [http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Voter\_Registration\_Fraud\_Clearinghouse](http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Voter_Registration_Fraud_Clearinghouse) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/14 "2006-09-26T16:15:53Z")
Yeah, something is obviously missing in that. I do recall some scattered local cases of “voting tombstones” in Virginia: but they all happened in overwhelmingly Republican districts where the contest was between two Republicans and the abuse likely only happened because the election board was run by an arm of the powerful local Republican party machine. Even so, we’re talking small potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/15 "2006-09-26T16:19:59Z")
I suppose a follow up question in those select fraud cases would be: was it ever enough to affect the outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/16 "2006-09-26T17:17:31Z")
There’s plenty of voter fraud in every election. A quick Google search reveals: [From Colorado:](http://www.ac4vr.com/reports/072005/colorado.html) > [@](#): > > In the months leading up to Election Day 2004, ACORN and other third-party voter registration groups were linked to hundreds of fraudulent registration submitted to elections officials across the state. … > > “A review of voter registration forms in five counties has revealed hundreds of potentially fraudulent forms. KUSA-TV reported Monday that it found 719 forms in Denver, Douglas, Adams, Boulder and Lake counties that had the wrong names, social security numbers and dates of births for voters. Many of the forms were turned in by voter registration drives which pay their workers based on the number of people they sign up.” > … > ACORN and other groups were implicated in fraudulent registration activity around Colorado. … In October, ACORN admitted that its employees had submitted hundreds of fake registration forms in Colorado. (162) However, as ACORN admitted its culpability in the registration fraud the group also lashed out at the press. According to one report, ACORN’s Western regional director, Jim Fleischmann, “downplayed the severity of the problem,” saying, “Just because you register someone 35 times doesn’t mean they get to vote 35 times …” (163) [Insert spit take] > [@](#): > > 9 News reported that there was a “record number of fraudulent registrations across” Colorado in 2004. (164) Election officials agreed that the level of fraudulent voter registration activity was unprecedented in Colorado history. “Everyone here at the commission has never seen anything like this. In the state we’ve never seen anything like this before,” said Denver clerk and recorder Karon Hatchett. (165) [From Wisconsin:](http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=270289) > [@](#): > > The Republican Party of Wisconsin checked the addresses of more than 300,000 people registered to vote in the city with a software program also used by the U.S. Postal Service. > > Republicans found that 5,619 addresses may be non-existent and then visited a number of the addresses. They snapped photos showing vacant lots, a gyro stand, a park and spots between two houses where the address should have been. > … > “George Bush lost the state by 5,708 votes, so these kinds of things do matter,” Chris Lato said. [In California:](http://online.recordnet.com/articlelink/101804/news/articles/101804-gn-3.php) > [@](#): > > Voter registration collectors backed by partisan dollars in the fierce battle to register voters in San Joaquin County have returned more fraudulent registrations ahead of today’s close of registration than ever before, elections officials said. > > More than 100 suspicious registration cards were mailed this month to state investigators, and some 2,000 more remain in boxes at the county elections office, Registrar of Voters Deborah Hench said. > > Hench said dead Republicans this year have been registered to vote Democrat, Democrats have been registered on cards pre-marked Republican, and registrations have been fabricated altogether. [In Ohio:](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343) > [@](#): > > Mary Poppins. Jeffrey Dahmer. Janet Jackson. Chad Staton. > > Defiance County elections officials were confident the first three hadn’t moved to their small community. But the fourth one lived there, and - in exchange for crack cocaine - tried to falsely submit the first three names and more than 100 others onto the county’s voter registration rolls, police said. [In Georgia:](http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/1004/21voting.html) > [@](#): > > Fulton County elections officials suspect they received as many as 3,000 bogus voter registration applications collected illegally in exchange for money. The applications were submitted to the Georgia secretary of state’s office in September by Unity '04, a national group working in Atlanta with civil rights leader the Rev. Joseph Lowery to register African-American voters. [Missouri:](http://www.wdaftv4.com/fullstory.asp?ID=5994) > [@](#): > > It should come as no surprise that Frank C. Smith Junior – a truck driver who believed wholeheartedly in civic participation – would show up to vote last year. Except, of course, that Smith had been dead and cremated for more than three years. The Joplin Globe reports today Smith was one of a number of people who had votes cast under their names after their death. In Smith’s case, authorities believe it was a mix-up, not voter fraud. But with at least eleven-thousand-700 dead people still on the voter rolls for next month’s election, that leaves open the possibility of illegal votes. [In Florida](http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041015-121325-3896r.htm) > [@](#): > > Authorities in several states are investigating whether thousands of voter registrations have been fraudulently submitted, many by members of the America Votes coalition. > > ``` > In Florida, for example, the Justice Department is working with state authorities to determine whether voter-registration applications filled out by Republicans and taken by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), a coalition member, purposely were not submitted to state election officials as part of a Democrats-only voter-registration drive. > > Mac Stuart, a former ACORN field director, told investigators that workers for the organization routinely withheld Republican voter registrations, while "thousands of invalid voter-registration cards" were submitted in their place. He said he was ordered by ACORN officials to generate 103,000 voter registrations from Dade County. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/17 "2006-09-26T17:29:48Z")
OK, BG, tell me what you think about this: A few weeks ago, I voted in the Maryland primary election. I walked into my polling place, was asked my name, address and birth date, was given a card and allowed to vote. The polling place workers didn’t personally know me from Adam, and what they did was exactly what they were told to do by Maryland law. IOW, _nowhere in the process was I required to produce any ID to prove that I’m me_. Maryland has decided, in the name of not “discriminating” against anyone, to eliminate the “burdensome” and “unfair” requirement of ID to vote. ANYONE who knows my name, where I live, and my birth date can walk into the polls and cast my vote, and nobody would ever know until I walked in after them and, whoops!, looks like I’ve already voted! If I know my neighbor is out of town, I could go vote as him, easy as pie, assuming I know his birthday. Does this not strike you as a problem? It bugs the shit outta me. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/18 "2006-09-26T17:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=Common Tater] An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It just makes good sense to have a secure voting system. I don’t think it’s a matter of “prove this is a real problem first”. [/QUOTE] Exactly. When I park my car in a lot that I’ve never been to before, I lock my doors and roll up my windows. I don’t need to see incontrovertable proof that cars have been stolen from that lot. I don’t care if none have before. It makes sense to take sensible precautions. It’s nuts to not ask for any ID from voters at the polling places. I usually find my name on the list before they do, and simply point to it for them. They have no way of knowing if it’s actually me or some random person off the street. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/19 "2006-09-26T18:06:18Z")
I’m curious how many of the phantom addresses are the result of hard to read voter registration forms. Isn’t it fun trying to fill out a voter registration form on a clipboard in front of the supermarket? Many times, there is very little space given. As far as the phony names such as Mary Poppins or Snow White, unfortunately I think some of those are probably from college kids or other volunteers who get bored/frusterated when working on a voter registration campaign. Some of them may have been ‘urged strongly’ to participate. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/20 "2006-09-26T18:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=Reloy3] I have prosecuted illegal aliens who have voted. (just to clarify, I was prosecuting them for something else such as DUI, and a records search indicated they were on the votor rolls).] [/QUOTE] They admitted to voting or the voter rolls showed they had voted? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125.md?page=2)