# Come on! Let's have some proof, already, that "false voters" really are a problem! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125 "2006-09-25T21:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/61 "2006-09-27T05:13:51Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Yea, yea, I’ve heard it all before. I don’t buy it. $85 is not that big a burden anyone. Anyway, I’m supporting the $5 to $15 IDs. Frankly, I think they should be free, but $5 to $15 is nominal. [/QUOTE] You don’t buy it? What is there not to buy? Do you mean to say it’s inconceivable to you that $5, much less $85 is too much of a burden for the working poor? Come to Camden, Trenton or Newark, my friend, and I’ll introduce you to some families who are living PRECISELY in the situation I described, and some worse. I find it hard to believe you’re as ignorant about this as you’re portraying. [QUOTE=Weirddave] And I said not one word about anyone being “lazy”. [/QUOTE] You’re correct. “Lazy” was offered by Lonesomepolecat. I should have been more specific in my attribution, although I didn’t actually accuse you of saying it. [QUOTE=Weirddave] If the only thing that the ID was good for was voting, then yes, absolutely, it would be a poll tax. Since I have advocated the use of general IDs which are needed for any number of purposes, it’s not a poll tax, see? [/QUOTE] No, I don’t see. The purpose for proposing the ID cards is ostensibly to ensure those who vote have a legal right to do so (I don’t believe this is the actual reason, but that’s another argument), therefore to charge for this identification would be the institution of a poll tax, regardless of whatever secondary purposes the ID would hold. [QUOTE=Weirddave] Frankly, I think they should be issued by each state free of charge, but I’m not gonna get my panties in a wad about the imagined burden that a $5 or $15 ID would put on anyone. And I find the idea of equating it with a “poll tax” ludicrous, hyperbolic, and guilty of blatant partisan wolf crying. [/QUOTE] Again, it’s not an imagined burden, unless of course you consider the working poor in New Jersey and other states to be imaginary people. It’s not hyperbolic and definitely not ludicrous if voter ID is its primary purpose. [QUOTE=Weirddave] I haven’t seen anyone offer even one shred of proof that requiring an ID has disenfranchised anyone. It’s not a new requirement, IDs have been required for years in order to vote. Now they are taking away that requirement. You’re the one that wants to change the status quo, you tell me why it’s necessary. Where are these legions of disenfranchised voters from years past? [/QUOTE] Hmmm…I seem to recall more than a shred of proof in the other thread, but I will investigate further, outside the SDMB, and report back my findings. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/62 "2006-09-27T08:16:01Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] How could you type so many words while completely missing my point? In order to eliminate the extremely rare chance of you voting in **RTFirefly** ’s name, or he for you, you choose to disenfranchise any number of _legal_ voters. [/quote] Prove to me that any legal voters have been disenfranchised. I’ve laid out the way things are now, and the problems with that, now show me what you are trying to prevent. [QUOTE=Frank] Well, goody gumdrops for you. My anectodal evidence is just as good as yours. [/quote] Yup. It sure is. [QUOTE=Frank] Cite? [/quote] [Good enough for you?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5262068/#) [QUOTE=Frank] I applied online; tendered my claims online; I never set foot in an office. [/quote] Goodie for you, I said I have no experience in unemployment matters. I hope to hell that what you went through was a temporary thing, if it’s the policy of unemployment bureaucrats to give any joe off the streets money than we’re in worse shape than I thought. [QUOTE=Frank] I resent this, and I will ask you to retract it. [/quote] Why? It was nothing personal against you. How did you open your account? What do you do when you need money from your account? How do you withdraw it? If you can do all of these things without ID, I wanna know how you’re doing it. I could be rich. [QUOTE=Frank] What do you think is unique? I gave them my SSN when I opened my account. Sometimes when I cash a check in person, they ask me to sign my signature again - that’s it. [/quote] Your SSN is a form of ID. I doubt they took your word for it the first time, you had to link your SSN to yourself. That’s ID. [QUOTE=Frank] Voting is a Government service? Sorry, pal, voting is my right. The government is not the boss of me. They have to prove I’m not a legal voter. If I vote illegally, they may try me and convict me of that. They may not say I can’t vote. [/QUOTE] I never said voting was a government service. I used that as another example as to what an ID might be required. I said voting was a right, where you and I differ is that you seem to think that any human who presents him or herself at the polls has a right to vote. I say that said human must present evidence that he or she is a citizen who has the right to vote. > [@Frank](#): > > More nonsense. You just stated yourself that you didn’t need an ID to vote in Maryland. I have not needed an ID to vote in Maryland, Massachusetts, Virginia, or Colorado in years past. Fill out the voter card and - yippee - off I go to vote the straight “Politicians who agree with Frank” card. I have only needed an ID to vote in Colorado since 2002. Where do you come up with this nonsense? You’re full of shit. In every past election since I’ve been of age (roughly 20 years), I’ve had to show my ID to vote. At the very least this ID has taken the form of a registration card. Now, I don’t have to show anything. Seriously Frank, we went round and round before, but I think you learned to respect me (while not agreeing with me) at the same time I learned to respect you, but at the same time, can you honestly tell me that requiring proof that you are a citizen and thus able to vote is out of line? What are you going for here? Onomatopoeia, I’ll get to you tomorrow, I’m tired now. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/63 "2006-09-27T09:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Birth certificate. [/QUOTE] A birth certificate does not establish citizenship for naturalized citizens. Swing and a miss! ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/64 "2006-09-27T14:52:50Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] A birth certificate does not establish citizenship for naturalized citizens. Swing and a miss! [/QUOTE] You asked what other than naturalization papers could be used. If you’re a naturalized citizen, you have plenty of ID, believe me. My wife is an immigrant, and she is required by law to carry her green card with her everywhere. Her green card is a government issued ID. You lose. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/65 "2006-09-27T15:38:13Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] You asked what other than naturalization papers could be used. If you’re a naturalized citizen, you have plenty of ID, believe me. My wife is an immigrant, and she is required by law to carry her green card with her everywhere. Her green card is a government issued ID. You lose. [/QUOTE] So your wife isn’t a naturalized citizen then? And is still some sort of resident alien? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/66 "2006-09-27T15:56:35Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] So your wife isn’t a naturalized citizen then? And is still some sort of resident alien? [/QUOTE] No, she’s not. She is a legal resident alien. She doesn’t chose to pursue citizenship at this time. She could, but she doesn’t want to. My point here is that for anyone who goes through the process of immigrating, the process itself creates voluminous amounts of paperwork, including a valid ID, which negates Fear’s red herring about naturalized citizens and birth certificates. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/67 "2006-09-27T16:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] No, she’s not. She is a legal resident alien. She doesn’t chose to pursue citizenship at this time. She could, but she doesn’t want to. My point here is that for anyone who goes through the process of immigrating, the process itself creates voluminous amounts of paperwork, including a valid ID, which negates Fear’s red herring about naturalized citizens and birth certificates. [/QUOTE] Ok, I thought that you were saying that Naturalized Citizens had extra ID requirements that Citizens didn’t have for a minute. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/68 "2006-09-27T16:30:27Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > And piffle to you, as well. I am under no requirement to show an ID to the police unless I am engaged in an activity which requires one, such as driving. > [@Weirddave](#): > > The Supremes have stated that this is no longer true. > [@Frank](#): > > Cite? > [@The Supreme Court of the United States](#): > > Nevada’s “stop and identify” statute requires a person detained by an officer under suspicious circumstances to identify himself… Petitioner’s conviction does not violate his Fourth Amendment rights or the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition on self-incrimination. [Hiibel v. Nevada](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=542&invol=177), 542 U.S. 177 (2004). ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/69 "2006-09-27T22:07:51Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] [Hiibel v. Nevada](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=542&invol=177), 542 U.S. 177 (2004). [/QUOTE] Does this actually apply to showing an ID, or merely to telling police my name? I’d tell the cops my name; I have no problem with that. But I’m under no legal requirement to even _carry_ an ID. I’ll readily add to my statement: I am under no requirement to show an ID to the police unless I am engaged in an activity which requires one, such as driving, _or when I am reasonably suspected of criminal activity if I happen to have an ID on me at the time_. > [@WeirdDave](#): > > You’re full of shit. This is the second time you’ve called me a liar. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/70 "2006-09-27T22:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] You’re full of shit. In every past election since I’ve been of age (roughly 20 years), I’ve had to show my ID to vote. At the very least this ID has taken the form of a registration card. Now, I don’t have to show anything. [/QUOTE] I’ve been voting for over 35 years in five different states and I have never had to show an id. I was a (Republican) poll watcher one year in New Jersey and no voter showed an id. You do need an id to register - but it has traditionally been a proof of residence, like a utility bill. A drivers license hasn’t been required, though it will do. The procedure in California, which is about the same all the places I’ve been: I walk across the street to the elementary school, I give the nice lady my name and address. They look me up in the big book, I sign it , and I get my ballot. If you insist on an id, would you agree to a bill, or a credit card, or some other piece of id that most people would have already without having to pay or jump through hoops? That should reduce 99% of the feared fraud, without disenfranchising anyone. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/71 "2006-09-27T22:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] You’re full of shit. [/QUOTE] You’re out of line: this is **GD** , not the **Pit**. [/Moderating] * * * Side note: (I do not recall ever having to provide ID to vote. I had to provide ID to _register_, but my declaration of who I am and where I live combined with my signature has absolutely been the only thing requested of me, in order to vote, for at least 20 years and actually as far back as I can recall.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/72 "2006-09-27T23:02:11Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Does this actually apply to showing an ID, or merely to telling police my name? I’d tell the cops my name; I have no problem with that. But I’m under no legal requirement to even _carry_ an ID. I’ll readily add to my statement: I am under no requirement to show an ID to the police unless I am engaged in an activity which requires one, such as driving, _or when I am reasonably suspected of criminal activity if I happen to have an ID on me at the time_. [/quote] I’m happy with that formulation… ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/73 "2006-09-28T00:07:24Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] If you insist on an id, would you agree to a bill, or a credit card, or some other piece of id that most people would have already without having to pay or jump through hoops? That should reduce 99% of the feared fraud, without disenfranchising anyone. [/QUOTE] I’ve already said, several times, that I think the state should provide an ID free of charge. I would have no problem with some type of alternate ID sufficing. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/74 "2006-09-28T00:13:04Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You’re out of line: this is **GD** , not the **Pit**. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] Can you please clarify exactly why this is out of line? It’s not a personal insult, it’s not personal at all, it’s a comment on what the person said. He presented something that is completely false as a fact, in the colloquial “full of shit” is the appropriate term for this. I don’t understand how this violates the rules of GD. Would my post have been OK if I said “That’s not true”? What’s the difference between the two terms? 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/75 "2006-09-28T00:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] OK, BG, tell me what you think about this: A few weeks ago, I voted in the Maryland primary election. I walked into my polling place, was asked my name, address and birth date, was given a card and allowed to vote. The polling place workers didn’t personally know me from Adam, and what they did was exactly what they were told to do by Maryland law. IOW, _nowhere in the process was I required to produce any ID to prove that I’m me_. Maryland has decided, in the name of not “discriminating” against anyone, to eliminate the “burdensome” and “unfair” requirement of ID to vote. ANYONE who knows my name, where I live, and my birth date can walk into the polls and cast my vote, and nobody would ever know until I walked in after them and, whoops!, looks like I’ve already voted! If I know my neighbor is out of town, I could go vote as him, easy as pie, assuming I know his birthday. Does this not strike you as a problem? It bugs the shit outta me. [/QUOTE] Not without some proof of what you described actually happening, and in significant (i.e., outcome-affecting) numbers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/76 "2006-09-28T00:40:10Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] If someone isn’t motivated enough even to get a birth certificate, do we really want them voting in the first place? [/QUOTE] Don’t go **there!** If someone’s stupid and/or evil enough to vote Republican I don’t want them to vote in the first place, but I don’t dispute their right! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/77 "2006-09-28T00:49:00Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Can you please clarify exactly why this is out of line? It’s not a personal insult, it’s not personal at all, it’s a comment on what the person said. He presented something that is completely false as a fact, in the colloquial “full of shit” is the appropriate term for this. I don’t understand how this violates the rules of GD. Would my post have been OK if I said “That’s not true”? What’s the difference between the two terms? [/QUOTE] “Full of shit” has broader implications expressed in coarser terms and making the subject of the sentence “you” makes it a direct insult. While “That is false” or even “That is a lie” is grudgingly tolerated, here, I see no reason to start accepting scatological comments. You are not being formally Warned and I did not write this up in the Big Book of Demerits. I just want the number of insults in this Forum kept to a minimum and “You are full of shit” qualifies as an insult that attacks the poster, not the post. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/78 "2006-09-28T00:53:10Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] A few weeks ago, I voted in the Maryland primary election. I walked into my polling place, was asked my name, address and birth date, was given a card and allowed to vote. The polling place workers didn’t personally know me from Adam, and what they did was exactly what they were told to do by Maryland law. IOW, nowhere in the process was I required to produce any ID to prove that I’m me. [/QUOTE] Really? You were not asked to sign in? There was no previous signature against which your signature was compared? That is interesting. In Ohio and Michigan, I always signed the register next to a photocopy of my signature from the last election (or the registration card if it was my first vote). ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/79 "2006-09-28T04:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Really? You were not asked to sign in? There was no previous signature against which your signature was compared? That is interesting. In Ohio and Michigan, I always signed the register next to a photocopy of my signature from the last election (or the registration card if it was my first vote). [/QUOTE] I really wasn’t. I had to sign a card, but it wasn’t compared to anything. I signed it, handed it to the poll worker, and she walked over and stuck it in a manila envelope taped to the side of the voting machine I was going to use. And thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125/80 "2006-09-28T04:53:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Not without some proof of what you described actually happening, and in significant (i.e., outcome-affecting) numbers. [/QUOTE] Nobody has ever proven that Diebold machines have been tampered with, merely that it is possible to do so, and you’ve been vehement against their use. Why is this any different? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-lets-have-some-proof-already-that-false-voters-really-are-a-problem/374125.md?page=5)