# Come on now, isn't it rather unfair to blame cops when a "toy gun" looks exactly like a real gun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099 "2016-09-16T16:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/121 "2016-09-21T15:31:47Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think that the proliferation of camera phones and now body cams have shone a light on the police force the likes of which we haven’t seen in a long time. Before, it would be laughably easy for a cop to claim self-defense, and there would be no one able to contradict him. That people say that it seems a good amount of them were justified was simply because we didn’t know any better. With a camera in everyone’s hand, I think we’re just now realizing the scope of the problem, and that should call into question the supposedly justified shootings of the past enough that we don’t give any cop a pass. Well, my point was that there are like over 1,000 police fatal shootings per year, and only a very, very small percent, even with camera evidence, become “controversial.” I don’t think any police officer, or anyone, should be “trusted” when they shoot and kill someone. Obviously everyone is entitled, in a criminal sense, to a presumption of innocence, but at least from an investigatory perspective (which isn’t the same thing as the court/criminal proceeding perspective) each case should start with skeptical investigators _looking to find evidence of wrongdoing._ In most cases such evidence doesn’t come up, now some of that is 100% due to a “blue line” effect, but I also think based on the best evidence we have, the vast majority of police shootings are both legally and morally justified. But the ones that are not and in which it’s either covered up or goes unpunished, represent a serious problem. I think everyone is in agreement more monitoring in the form of more and better body cameras is a good check on police power that historically we did not have. > [@](#): > > Did that really originate in the 90’s? I don’t know, but I’m hard-pressed to say that a focus on officer safety was a recent thing. I’m more of the mind that this kind of thing has always happened and it took cameras in everyone’s hand to bring it to light I think you’re talking about two different things here. Police abuse of power, unwarranted violence and etc are as old as police forces. Frankly, given what we know about the South and even many large cities in the North during the Civil Rights era, and the even lesser oversight, I think police abuses were probably substantially more common 40 years ago than now, and even more common 20 years ago than now. But that isn’t really what I’m talking about. To me there are different situations and scenarios. A cop pulling a black man over for “driving too nice a car” is an example of overt racism and inappropriate behavior, same as it was in the 1960s when it was expected police behavior. Police beating a black suspect while calling him a nigger, is likewise. But police having more “police interactions” with black suspects because of “Broken Windows” policing that requires them to harass ordinary citizens over penny ante crimes, and also deploys police in far greater force in black neighborhoods, is a reflection of both systemic racism as well as systemic problems in black neighborhoods. When those situations become violent, and a ‘hyper-vigilant’ cop shoots someone or chokes someone to death, or is walking a stairwell with gun drawn because the housing building he’s patrolling scares him to death–that to me isn’t qualitatively the same as the cops arresting blacks for being too uppity in the Jim Crow South. That’s more a consequence of multiple shifts in policing policy. From everything I’ve heard the ‘hyper-vigilant’ officer safety training indeed started about 20-25 years ago en masse. I’ve talked with police officers who lived through the shift, and they said there was a notable difference between the outlook toward suspects among veterans from the late 70s and 80s and those who came up in the early/mid-90s. Traditional policing it was more expected if you went along the “continuum” with a person of “ask, tell, make” the “make” part of it generally meant going hand to hand. A lot of older cops even described their jobs as “fighting drunks and druggies”, police today for various reasons are more likely to not tolerate the sort of risks involved in that sort of policing, removing various tools from the tool belt (like hand to hand wrestling, impact weapons etc.) Lots of older police will tell you they could achieve amazing success and compliance from unruly suspect using a baton. But the baton or night stick is almost unused now. Now you mostly have a continuum of pepper spray/taser–\>gun, with a lot of situations arising in the past where at most the cop _might_ have used his stick, and now he goes straight for his side arm. > [@](#): > > All I’m saying is, it seems to work in some situations. We can’t be willing to not try it. Let’s retrain a large police force in a populated area to do it for a few decades and see where it gets us. I think in situations where shooting someone is justified it would work in almost none of them, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/122 "2016-09-21T16:24:45Z")
Example: a cop pulls a guy over for speeding. Guy reaches into his pants for _something_. Should the cop risk killing a man to issue a $75 ticket? Or maybe a temporary retreat isn’t such a bad idea at that moment? That’s where people often disagree. Perhaps in a particular situation, shooting the suspect IS justified. But is getting into that situation in the first place justified? These are the questions we should be asking. Mike Brown may have stormed Officer Brown, justifying his killing. But was stopping two black men for crossing the street in the first place justified? No. EVERY police action has the potential to end lives and destroy families. They shouldn’t be so blase about choosing to use their power. Traffic stops are the single most dangerous thing a cop regularly does in their career. So maybe instead of using that fact to justify trigger happy cops, we should use that fact to justify eliminating traffic stops? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/123 "2016-09-21T17:00:21Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > These are the questions we should be asking. Mike Brown may have stormed Officer Brown, justifying his killing. But was stopping two black men for crossing the street in the first place justified? No. EVERY police action has the potential to end lives and destroy families. They shouldn’t be so blase about choosing to use their power. Wilson did not stop Michael Brown for crossing the street, but because he matched the description of someone who had just robbed a convenience store and assaulted the clerk. Do you believe this was an inappropriate use of police power? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/124 "2016-09-21T17:18:00Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > How can you believe that? When a court tries an officer vs. a victim of police misconduct, if there are no hard evidence to point to either side, isn’t the cop usually believed by virtue of him being a cop? Hell, I’m in this topic arguing and I’d believe a cop over a random person. I’m saying that has to stop. Cops killing someone in the line of duty, if they really want to go with this “no inherent necessity to protect anyone” bullshit, should be treated like any citizen who shoots a person. Maybe the news is too sensationalistic, but I don’t see many people getting off for the reverse effect. Aren’t people also punished more harshly if they attack a cop? It seems like they want the benefit of doubt, but none of the responsibility of more accountability. As an agent of the state imbued with police power, assaulting a cop, killing a cop or even resisting arrest probably should be a bigger deal than assaulting me, or even killing me. Cops do not get special considerations in court. I used to clerk for a judge and we stated several times during jury selection that cops are not due any more or any less credibility than anyone else by virtue of their occupation. Then when we give the jury instruction we once again say that cops are not due any more or any less credibility than anyone else by virtue of their occupation. Cops frequently seem more credible when there is conflicting testimony because the guy that is providing conflicting testimony is frequently a criminal that was committing a crime at the time. Absent any evidence to the contrary, I might believe an average citizen over a criminal that was committing a crime at the time. Wouldn’t you? If the cop was somehow “dirty” I might believe the average citizen over the cop. This is why we see cops point out the criminal history of the other guy. And the other guy will point out if the cop has ever shot anyone before or had a complaint filed against him. > [@](#): > > Its not simply that I don’t like it, I don’t believe they are qualified and I seek to change that. Of the cops that have been recently involved in police shootings, how many do you think had a college degree? Not necessarily Harvard but a two year college degree? > [@](#): > > Yes, it will be costly, it will be time consuming, and it may be a while before time and money can be shifted. But I think its worth it. More importantly, its necessary. With the proliferation of cameras, we are today seeing these kind of abuses widespread on a scale we couldn’t have imagined before. Add to that, the pissy police unions being dicks over protestors and threatening not to protect people gives me a bad taste in my mouth. If it means that we have to think of cops not as fresh faces right out of high school being paid way less than most people would take to throw themselves into danger, then we must change that. With as much as they are being paid, why can’t we get more qualified people? I can be convinced to increase the budget for police from its current 5% to maybe 10% of our budget but I doubt doubling the budget would get you where we need. How much are you willing to pay to fix a problem that at least one study indicates is not a problem (well police brutality IS a problem but the rate of killing may not split along racial lines if you correct for things like criminality). [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/11/no-racial-bias-police-shootings-study-harvard-prof/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/11/no-racial-bias-police-shootings-study-harvard-prof/) I agree that there a lot of cops have horrible attitudes but this is not solely the result of a bad cop culture, it is the result of a bad American culture. Warrior worship that has bled from worshiping the Audie Murphy’s of the world to worshiping pretty much anyone in a uniform. > [@](#): > > No, I think it probably has always happened to some degree, but we couldn’t know it before it used to be so easy to cover it up by killing the perp and claiming self-defense. Now everybody has a camera and we are seeing the abuses in the light of day for the first time. OK so we agree that this is not a recent phenomenon and that if training is insufficient now then it has been insufficient for our entire history. And while there is always room for improvement, police brutality seems like it might be lower on the list of priorities for government dollars if that improvement comes at too high a cost. > [@](#): > > I think plenty of people will go for that job. By comparison, plenty of people still volunteer for the military, even though its more demanding and has more rules. In fact we have more military personnel than cops. I think with the right incentives, we can definitely get as much or more people joining the police force even if we tell them they must put their lives in danger and are not allowed to shoot at every shadow that spooks them. Can you be more specific about the package you would offer to entice these men and women with the bravery, discretion, restraint, judgment, and willingness to risk their lives and their careers to meet these higher standards? > [@](#): > > I don’t really appreciate the condescension. I think its something we don’t do that other countries seem to be able to do. Are we too stupid to learn? Is it too hard for Americans to do that, despite us having more gun training than countries that don’t have a gun culture? So what if its hard? Make them train more! Get better people! We’ve been conditioned to think that this is as good as our police can get, they can never be trained more or better because that’s gonna cost money, and they can never change their training because we think it doesn’t work or is too hard to learn. Well fuck that, we need a better standard of police in this country I’m not condescending, I’m pointing out how impractical it is to “shoot to disable” I’m all for spending more money for better police but how many schools or firehouses would you close to do it? Or would you simply raise taxes for an ill defined problem that is getting a lot of press? > [@](#): > > Sorry to say it so flippantly, but that’s why they’re cops and the rest of us are not. That’s why they undergo training and testing and are given the benefit of the doubt many times because they go into dangerous situations, they can order civilians around, and in many jurisdictions they are the ones allowed to go in armed to stop a threat. If they are too afraid of that to act with a little compassion and intelligence, maybe they shouldn’t be cops. OK, lets say I have a gun that I am going to point at you. How do you disable me without killing me? You pretty much have to shoot the gun out of my hand right? The vast majority of people can’t do that in a stress situation no matter how much they train for it. You are not asking for compassion and intelligence, you are asking for special forces skills combined with the wisdom of solomon for a situation that accounts for a tiny sliver of what cops have to encounter on a day to day basis. How much of their domestic violence training should they cut to improve their ability to disable an armed suspect? > [@](#): > > How many of these shootings that have occurred happened when the assailant was running towards a cop and they had no choice? Even I would totally sympathize with an officer if someone was running towards them. But Laquan McDonald was shot while he was on the ground. He was first put down with a few shots, then as he moved while lying on the ground with a knife, they shot him again. I’m an untrained, jittery civilian who’s handled a real weapon twice, but even I wouldn’t shoot a guy who had a knife while he was on the ground. I’d at least wait for him to get on his knees first to see if he was going to run to me. And then there was that completely innocent black guy who was a caretaker for an autistic white kid. Both were sitting on the ground, the black guy had his hands up, the cop thought the white kid had a gun (it was actually a toy train), and he shot the black guy! Fuck that, whatever excuse that cop had is pure bullshit. Philando Castile was sitting in a car in no position to run when the cop shot him 4 or 5 times. Eric Garner was choked to death while he was on the ground. There are much more examples. These were all cops who encountered black people on the streets in one capacity or another. None of them were in a position to run and still the cop was trigger happy. If that 21 foot rule is true, I would say cops need to take more of a chance because they are simply accidentally killing too many innocent people, or people who didn’t deserve it If your point is that cops are killing innocent people, then I agree. Cops killed 1000 people last year. I suspect that dozens of them were unjustified or the result of the use of excessive force. But this thread is about how cops react when they are threatened by a gun. What do you think is the appropriate response then? Now in the Philando Castile case, there was a gun and that case created a rift in the gun community because there are a lot of kneejerk cop supporters in that community (because a lot of them are cops or first responders) and there are a lot of believers in an armed citizenry. That cop seemed way too nervous to be a cop. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/125 "2016-09-21T17:22:14Z")
I actually do. “Large black man wanted in connection with a robbery” is not enough info to stop any large black man you see. That’s part of my “don’t get into that situation in the first place” advice. I see it all the time, “so and so matched description of our suspect, so we stopped him and killed him when he resisted”, when the entirety of that description reduces down to “black man at large”. Maine just ruled that black men are justified in fleeing the police, partly for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/126 "2016-09-21T17:52:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I actually do. “Large black man wanted in connection with a robbery” is not enough info to stop any large black man you see. How about “[large black man in a white T-shirt, yellow socks, khaki shorts, and a St Louis Cardinals baseball cap, reported as having stolen a box of cigarillos in company with another black male](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown)”? Three guesses as to what Michael Brown was wearing, who he was with, and what he was carrying in his hand. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/127 "2016-09-21T18:40:46Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I actually do. “Large black man wanted in connection with a robbery” is not enough info to stop any large black man you see. That’s part of my “don’t get into that situation in the first place” advice. I see it all the time, “so and so matched description of our suspect, so we stopped him and killed him when he resisted”, when the entirety of that description reduces down to “black man at large”. Maine just ruled that black men are justified in fleeing the police, partly for this reason. Yeah that isn’t what happened. He had a pretty detailed description of Brown–more than enough to meet the standard for making a stop of a person on the street–which is “reasonable suspicion.” Additionally helping the legal aspects is the fact Brown was illegally jaywalking, which obviously is a very minor crime, but even a minor crime is the difference between a cop being able to stop you essentially “if he feels like it” and whether he has no recourse if you just ignore him and keep walking (since Wilson had reasonable suspicion Brown was a robbery/assault suspect he could’ve detained brown even if Brown was Brown walking down the side walk legally.) Tactically many have questioned the form of approach and initial behavior of Wilson, which is probably where we could have a discussion about training. But the idea that the stop itself was ill advised isn’t supported by reality. As for a traffic stop, you wouldn’t shoot someone for putting their hands in their pockets in my opinion, that’s a situation where you should draw your gun and order them to slowly show their hands. If they proceed to actually pull something out then it becomes a different situation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/128 "2016-09-21T19:03:14Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Example: a cop pulls a guy over for speeding. Guy reaches into his pants for _something_. Should the cop risk killing a man to issue a $75 ticket? Or maybe a temporary retreat isn’t such a bad idea at that moment? That’s where people often disagree. Perhaps in a particular situation, shooting the suspect IS justified. But is getting into that situation in the first place justified? > > These are the questions we should be asking. Mike Brown may have stormed Officer Brown, justifying his killing. But was stopping two black men for crossing the street in the first place justified? No. EVERY police action has the potential to end lives and destroy families. They shouldn’t be so blase about choosing to use their power. > > Traffic stops are the single most dangerous thing a cop regularly does in their career. So maybe instead of using that fact to justify trigger happy cops, we should use that fact to justify eliminating traffic stops? These are all good questions but you don’t honestly mean to say that we should stop traffic stops, right? Perhaps traffic stops are dangerous because the people who are dangerous are more likely than most to flout traffic laws. That level of danger is something that I think we expect cops to tolerate. Forcing them to hesitate before they react when they believe their life is in danger is not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/129 "2016-09-21T19:16:12Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I actually do. “Large black man wanted in connection with a robbery” is not enough info to stop any large black man you see. That’s part of my “don’t get into that situation in the first place” advice. I see it all the time, “so and so matched description of our suspect, so we stopped him and killed him when he resisted”, when the entirety of that description reduces down to “black man at large”. Maine just ruled that black men are justified in fleeing the police, partly for this reason. The description was not that vague. It was specific enough to make the stop reasonable. The incident was investigated by the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division (these are some of the best lawyers in the country bar none) and they could not find any basis for filing criminal charges against the police officer. Michael Brown was shot in the front. All the credible witnesses and forensic evidence corroborated the cop’s story and all the conflicting stories came from witnesses that were not credible. Michael Browns hands were not in the air, he was shot in the front and forensic evidence shows that he was moving towards the cop. there are race problems in Ferguson but Michael brown is not good proof of a racist police department. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/130 "2016-09-21T23:40:45Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Yes. Same in Illinios. I could lose my CCL just for being made if someone calls the cops on me. > > My perspective on this is as a trained/licensed concealed carrier, not as a cop. I’ve taken more training than the CCL requires, and target practice twice a month. Based on what I know, how I’ve been trained, and as someone who walks city streets with a gun, I can tell you that all anyone has to do is reveal to me that they have something that looks a lot like a gun. Sorry, but I know how long it takes from revealing the weapon to killing me with it. You can be damned sure I’ll do my best to make sure you hit the sidewalk/street first. > > If the kid in question here merely had the weapon in his hand - and make no mistake, a pellet gun is a weapon - I’d have not hesitated to stop the threat. Whether that’s the true story, whether the gun was visible at the time of the cop deciding to shoot - that’s where the question lies. Wow, your States are a bit anal when it comes to printing or accidental uncovering of your concealed weapon. Here in Florida unintentional display is not a crime. I believe that if you carry your Wesson should be concealed. However, bending over, wind, etc. can cause your weapon to print through a shirt. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/131 "2016-09-22T00:51:45Z")
Carrying at all is very new in Illinois. The last state to allow concealed carry, and just a couple years ago at that, cops here are still trying to figure out how to handle us. So not only is the law one of the strictest, with qualifications being among the strictest, interpretation of said law is also the most conservative, as no current license holders want to push our luck. Maybe things will be different in another 10 years. Heck, there isn’t even a procedure in place yet for renewing our CCL, since they have two and a half (about, I think) more years to come up with one. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099/132 "2016-09-22T08:57:02Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Feel free to copy this to other relevant threads, where people don’t seem to understand how hard it is to tell a real gun from anything else made to look like a gun. Call it a toy, a replica, airsoft, pellet, whatever - here’s a handy string of pictures: [Can you tell a real gun from a toy? It's tougher than you think. Take our quiz. - cleveland.com](http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2015/03/can_you_tell_a_real_gun_from_a.html#0). I dare anyone to determine in less than a second whether each is lethal or not. That’s an excellent piece and really illustrates the issue well - I know a _lot_ about guns and a number of those fooled me; I’d hate to be trying to make a split-second decision on the matter as a police officer facing a potential threat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-on-now-isnt-it-rather-unfair-to-blame-cops-when-a-toy-gun-looks-exactly-like-a-real-gun/766099.md?page=6)