# Come to think of it, why do we need to "train" Iraqi soldiers/police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733 "2006-09-30T14:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/21 "2006-10-03T08:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Okay, so provide me with the training curriculum for an Iraqi soldier. Is it three years long? The U.S. Army is so hopefully inept and out of control of the situation they can’t guard a barracks and a parade square? Or why not fly them to Parris Island? Is it going to be harder to train cops and soldiers in Iraq? I suppose. Three years, though? That would certainly be the longest military training period, well, eve. **Exactly how long is it going to take?** [/QUOTE] It doesn’t help that the $75 million training school that was built by the US has been labeled a disaster by USG auditors. [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/27/AR2006092702134.html) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, Sept. 27 – A $75 million project to build the largest police academy in Iraq has been so grossly mismanaged that the campus now poses health risks to recruits and might need to be partially demolished, U.S. investigators have found… > > The most serious problem was substandard plumbing that caused waste from toilets on the second and third floors to cascade throughout the building. A light fixture in one room stopped working because it was filled with urine and fecal matter. The waste threatened the integrity of load-bearing slabs, federal investigators concluded… > > “They may have to demolish everything they built,” said Robert DeShurley, a senior engineer with the inspector general’s office. “The buildings are falling down as they sit.”… So an already very difficult task is made more difficult by corruption and incompetence from the US government and its contractors. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/22 "2006-10-03T09:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > **Xtisme** > As for why not fly them to Paris Island for training (or somewhere else in the US presumably), I’d have to say cost and security concerns. I know it was kicked around at some point flying them out to a NATO facility to train…but the Euro’s didn’t want that either. There is a NATO officer training facility in Southern Baghdad. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/23 "2006-10-03T14:30:24Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] There is a NATO officer training facility in Southern Baghdad. [/QUOTE] I believe there is. But my point was, there was talk at one time of flying out officers and even companies for training in European based NATO facilities…in order to train them out of the line of fire so to speak. Training them in Southern Baghdad isn’t exactly the most calm area to instill fighting skills and spirit in such a demoralized force. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/24 "2006-10-03T14:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I believe there is. But my point was, there was talk at one time of flying out officers and even companies for training in European based NATO facilities…in order to train them out of the line of fire so to speak. Training them in Southern Baghdad isn’t exactly the most calm area to instill fighting skills and spirit in such a demoralized force. -XT [/QUOTE] Some Iraqi Officers are trained at Sandhurst. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/25 "2006-10-03T14:50:08Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I believe there is. But my point was, there was talk at one time of flying out officers and even companies for training in European based NATO facilities…in order to train them out of the line of fire so to speak. Training them in Southern Baghdad isn’t exactly the most calm area to instill fighting skills and spirit in such a demoralized force. -XT [/QUOTE] Besides, from what we can see, all we are doing is training them to fight each other more effectively. God knows where the Reality-Deniers get their fantasy of an independent army and police force from when all they often are are militias in disguise. [The Confused Security Situation in Iraq](http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2507) > [@](#): > > While U.S. and coalition forces—and increasingly the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF)—struggle to defeat the Sunni insurgency in Iraq, they are also dealing with a range of armed groups that complicate the security scenario. Militias and ad hoc units with different levels of government sanction are growing in strength, and the training of the ISF is progressing unevenly. > [@](#): > > In addition to directly challenging the ISF, Shiite militias pose a severe threat to stability in Iraq with their capacity to infiltrate the Iraqi police and army and form undercover death squads. A major concern in Iraq is the increasing incidence of men in Interior Ministry uniforms rounding up and killing Sunni men. Beginning around May 2005, after Bayan Jabr took office as minister of the interior, bodies of people who seem to have been killed by the police have been appearing in places ranging from rivers to sewage treatment facilities. The violent incidents are increasing, especially after the February 22 bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a Shiite holy site. The targets are civilians, and their bodies are usually found bound with police handcuffs and shot in the manner of an execution—and also often bearing the marks of torture. The death squads carrying out these attacks are said to be composed of militia members who have enlisted in the police. While death squads are typically Shiite in composition and target Sunnis, there are also incidents of Sunnis targeting Shiites who have informed the police about explosives or improvised explosive devices. > [@](#): > > Some police and army units within the ISF have moved away from their original training and developed independent and often problematic methods of operation. A variety of notable Police Command Units, such as the Scorpion, Tiger, and Thunder Brigades, were formed by the former interior minister Falah al-Naqib, a Sunni, in summer 2004 without the consent of U.S. commanders. These forces originally drew praise as effective Iraqi security initiatives and for their success in counterterrorism operations, but their high level of independence and reputation for brutality are causes for concern. Or from 2005 (and we all know how much better things have got since then!) From [The Council on Foreign Relations](http://www.cfr.org/publication/7828/) > [@](#): > > What’s the extent of insurgent infiltration of Iraq’s security forces? > > Widespread, many experts say. Insurgents frequently appear to have inside information about the movements and routines of Iraqi and U.S. troops that they use to mount deadly attacks, such as the December 21 suicide bombing of a U.S. military base in Mosul, which killed 22. Though the Pentagon does not provide specific numbers, news reports indicate that dozens of Iraqi police and military personnel, including some high-ranking commanders, have been dismissed on suspicion they provided information or other assistance to insurgents. “Subversion of the government and armed forces is the bread and butter of an insurgency,” Bruce Hoffman, a RAND Corporation counterinsurgency expert, recently told the Associated Press. > [@](#): > > How does the infiltration weaken the forces? > > The most immediate effect is that it allows insurgents to get information about troop movements and plans. It also sows distrust between U.S. forces and Iraqi troops, Trainor says. And the presence of insurgent infiltrators undermines trust and cohesion—essential elements for any effective security force. “The U.S. military can do a great job training the Iraqis, but if there is this rot on the inside that is eating away at the attitude of the forces, I’m not sure training will be enough,” Bacevich says. “It’s an enormously difficult and potentially fatal problem.” > Could the infiltration be part of a wider insurgent strategy? > > Yes. As in Vietnam, where there was widespread Vietcong subversion of the U.S.-backed South Vietnamese army, some experts say the Iraqi infiltration may be part of a guerrilla strategy to seize power after the January 30 elections. “Many in the Iraqi security forces are simply biding their time right now; they are in league with the insurgents but are not showing their hand,” says Kenneth Katzman, senior Middle East analyst at the Congressional Research Service. “There is a core hoping to get integrated into the post-election force with the intention of staging a coup d’etat.” Many insurgents sympathize with Saddam Hussein’s Baath party, Katzman says, “and the Baath Party strategy has always been to get control of the security forces.” Some experts predict Iraqi Shiites, who make up 60 percent of the Iraqi population and who won a majority of transitional National Assembly seats in the January 30 elections, will purge the forces and replace many Sunni officers with Shiites. Others say that if the U.S. military remains engaged in Iraq, it will limit purges and attempt to ensure the Iraqi army remains an ethnically and religiously balanced force that won’t tyrannize Iraqi minorities. [Insurgents inside police.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4266304.stm) > [@](#): > > Insurgents have infiltrated Iraq’s security services, National Security Adviser Muwafaq al-Rubaie has admitted. > > Speaking on the BBC’s Newsnight programme, he said he had no idea how far the services had been undermined, with problems “in many parts of Iraq”. > > It comes after the British Army said it was forced to take action to free two UK soldiers after learning Iraqi police had handed them to a militia group. But weep not, nor rend thy garments whilst gnashing thy teeth. I’m sure Ryan or Starving Artist will be here shortly, breathless with the news that some school in Basra has had a new front door fitted and hasn’t been blown up yet. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/26 "2006-10-03T14:59:36Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Some Iraqi Officers are trained at Sandhurst. [/QUOTE] Well, I for one stand reassured. No - wait a minute… [Training is blamed for Iraq abuses](http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,11816,1435286,00.html?gusrc=rss) > [@](#): > > The abuse of Iraqi prisoners by British soldiers is the result of inadequate training of young officers, a senior British army source said yesterday. > > Training at the Sandhurst military academy concentrated too much on military tactics and not enough on the relationship between officers and their soldiers, said the source speaking on condition of anonymity. > > “Pre-operation training was not there”, he said, referring to Iraq. > > Three soldiers were found guilty at a court martial in Germany of abuses against Iraqi civilians. Some 50 others face prosecution arising out of five other incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/27 "2006-10-03T16:37:54Z")
Firstly, the three years figure is a gross misnomer. It took a significant period of time to even get the country under nominal U.S. control. It was not until then that any sort of training processes could begin. New recruits in the Iraqi Army receive eight weeks of basic training. After that time they are in advanced courses in infantry tactics, heavy weaponry and etc. Pumping out new enlisted men is not that significant of a challenge. Developing a trained and professional officer corps that will keep the men in line and lead them effectively, is. We’ve been doing it in the United States for over two hundred years. Becoming an office in the United States military is usually a lengthy process. A large number of officers are college educated, having spent four years in one of the ROTC programs in colleges throughout the country. A strong nucleus of highly trained officers come through the respective service academies, which are themselves staffed with very knowledgeable, experienced people. The Iraqis don’t have that sort of leadership of their own yet, and it will take a long time before it is there. For what its worth, the Iraqi Security Forces currently number ~300,000, and around 5,000 are trained every month. You can only recruit and train so many people in any given span of time. You first have to find people willing to be soldiers or police officers, then you have to train them. You do not have unlimited training capabilities, there is only X amount of persons who can be trained at any given time. Because you only have a certain amount of resources and personnel that can be allocated towards training new soldiers and police officers. Furthermore, aside from just training the military, it has to gradually be given control over the country, and gradually weaned off of military support from the coalition. Before we can leave Iraq we simply have to leave an established police and military presence that can keep the government alive. Whether or not you supported the invasion of Iraq, I think most rational people do not think the Iraqis deserve to be condemned to chaos. However irrational your hatred of the United States military, most persons who are capable of looking at the issue in a balanced manner are aware that the U.S. military is the primary organization responsible for keeping what order there is in Iraq at present. The situation with the training and deployment of the Iraqi Security Forces has improved consistently over time. As of August, 2006, 5 Iraqi Army Divisions, 25 brigades, and 85 battalions and 2 National Police battalions “assumed lead responsibility for security in their areas of occupation.” These areas represents roughly 65% of Iraq geographically. “Assumed lead” typically means they are responsible for the primary security issues (directly dealing with insurgents and etc–units said to be “in the lead” must have proven they can plan and execute combat operations) but they continue to receive logistic support from the coalition. However, July in Muthanna Province the Multi-National Force-Iraq relinquished control to the civilian governor of the province and the ISF. It is the first of the 18 provinces to be given provincial control over security matters, and several other provinces are expected to follow (Dhi Qar, Dahuk, Irbil, Sulamaniyah.) To get back to the topic at hand, the ISF is doing fairly well, all things considered. The problem in Iraq is not really the ISF’s training speed but an increase in sectarian violence. We’ve essentially moved past the “insurgency” phase, moved past the phase where Al-Qaeda and other foreign terrorist groups will be a major factor. We’ve moved to a phase where differing groups of Iraqis are growing increasingly willing to use organized violence as a means of attaining power in the new Iraq. The percentage of casualties in Iraq that are Iraqi-Iraqi violence has significantly outstripped incidents of Iraqi-on-American violence/casualties. The coalition forces continue to be a popular target among some segments of the population, but their casualty rate is quite low in such attacks, compared to a much higher casualty rate in attacks which are Iraqi-on-Iraqi in nature (either different armed groups fighting other armed groups, armed groups fighting the ISF, or armed groups killing civilians.) The ISF has to be made independent of the growing sectarian conflict, which will be quite difficult to do. If the ISF just becomes a tool in the hands of the Shi’a majority it could end up becoming an organization of repression and terror directed at the Sunni community, we could see eventually a return to the old Saddam-style Iraq, except the former oppressed would now be the oppressors; I do not think anyone wants to see that. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/28 "2006-10-04T10:57:06Z")
I want some of whatever MH is on. You have totally ignored all the evidence that shows that the army and security forces are penetrated by militia and are just training grounds for sectarian armies and that come the day they will be fighting for ‘their’ side. Perhaps rather than spinning whistle in the dark fantasies you might like to - I dunno - back them up with evidence. This being GD and all where head-up-the-ass hand-waving doesn’t cut it. Allow me to get the ball rolling. [Handover delayed](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5309722.stm) > [@](#): > > The handover, which should happen later this week, means that for the first time since the fall of Saddam Hussein, Iraqi forces will be under direct command and control of their own ministry of defence. > > But the American-led international forces in Iraq will still take the lead role in many combat operations and still directly control most of the country. > > There are now around 140,000 trained soldiers and armed police in Iraq but they lack the equipment they need and have often turned away from a fight. > > Kidnap gangs are able to operate openly in Baghdad and the police are forced to turn away. > > The weakness of Iraqi forces was revealed in a two-day battle in the town of Diwaniya last week. > > The Iraqi forces took heavy casualties and had to call in American support before arranging a truce with Shia fighters from the Mehdi army. [Work in Progress](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/08/MNGLAL1QLN1.DTL) > [@](#): > > “Today is an important milestone, but we still have a way to go,” said Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. general in Iraq. > > Military analysts interviewed about the handover agreed on both of those points, but they focused more on the latter. > > “A lot of this is just rhetoric,” said Anthony Cordesman, a Middle East expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank. “It’s all part of a process to give the Iraqi forces more visibility, more confidence and, hopefully, give the government more leverage in terms of its ability to influence political compromise.” > > “The question is, who are the Iraqi troops loyal to and what are their capabilities? And what does this say about internal security?” said Tom Mockaitis, a professor of history at De Paul University whose focus is counterinsurgencies. “At this point, I don’t see much more than a symbolic gesture.” [US faces latest trouble -loyalty](http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/06/news/military.php) > [@](#): > > For much of the war in Iraq, U.S. military commanders have said their most important mission here was to prepare Iraqi security forces to take over the fight against the Sunni- led insurgency. But with the threat of full-scale sectarian strife looming larger, they are suddenly grappling with the possibility that they have been arming one side in a prospective civil war. [Abu Graib report](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38785) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – Buried in the middle of the scathing Army report on Abu Ghraib prison abuses is an unrelated item that has received little attention in the press, but one that is no less disturbing. > > “The Iraqi guards at Abu Ghraib demonstrate questionable loyalties, and are a potentially dangerous contingent,” wrote Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba in the 53-page executive summary to his investigative report. > > “These guards have furnished the Iraqi criminal inmates with contraband, weapons and information,” he said. “Additionally, they have facilitated the escape of at least one detainee.” > > It’s not the first time U.S.-trained Iraqis have betrayed U.S. forces counting on them for security back-up. > > In April, several hundred Iraqi soldiers refused to join U.S. Marines in an offensive against insurgents in Fallujah. And U.S.-trained police and members of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps recently refused to engage militia loyal to Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr. In fact, films show Iraqi police fighting alongside Sadr’s forces. > > U.S. military intelligence officials say spies have infiltrated local security forces, and have tipped off the insurgents to U.S. convoy routes and even the locations of visiting U.S. officials. > > And they question the wisdom of forging closer partnerships with local forces. > > Nonetheless, the administration is pushing ahead with plans to train a total of about 260,000 Iraqi soldiers, police and other security personnel by the first quarter of next year to help stabilize the country and eventually start replacing U.S. troops. [CRS Report for Congress: warning pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22093.pdf#search=%22loyalty%20of%20iraq%20security%20forces%22) > [@](#): > > Summary > > This report analyzes the prospects for rebuilding an inclusive Iraqi security force > that transcends Iraq’s various ethnic and sectarian communities. U.S. policymakers and Iraqi officials aim to create a unified Iraqi security force; however, the predominately Sunni Arab insurgency has hampered this effort, and many believe that the new Iraqi security agencies will ultimately be composed of mostly Shiite and Kurdish recruits with the Kurds also separately maintaining their own militias. > [@](#): > > As stated earlier, the effort to create a unified Iraqi security force mirrors and > depends on Iraqi politicians’ efforts to create a pluralistic political system that is > representative of all of Iraq’s ethnic and religious communities. The Sunni-character of the insurgency has hindered efforts both at the political and military levels, though some analysts caution against describing the situation as a burgeoning civil war. Other analysts believe that while the numerical strength of the Sunni insurgency may be small, the perception of a sectarian civil war could become a reality unless Sunnis are integrated into the Iraqi security forces in a significant way. And this is a report from 2005 and the prospects of a pluralistic political system has gotten worse not better. Violence is worse, not better. [Rebaathification](http://www.juancole.com/) > [@](#): > > The High Commission on Debaathification and the relevant committees in parliament charged on Monday that Minister of the Interior Jawad al-Bulani is “Baathifiying” the ministry, appointing high-level employees with a Baath Party background and refusing to dismiss them even though the High Commission had identified them as such. They charged that he has reinstated two dozen ex-Baathist government servants who had earlier been purged, and that he has put Baathists into the administration of Kut in the Shiite south. They believe an attempt is being made to re-introduce Baathist thought into the Iraqi government. [Iraq P (Oct 3d) unveils ‘peace comittees’](http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-10-03T041608Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-270320-3.xml&archived=False) > [@](#): > > Iraq’s prime minister announced a broad plan to halt militia killings on Monday, as mass kidnaps by men in uniform and dozens of tortured bodies found in Baghdad fuelled fears of all-out sectarian civil war. > > A day after the U.S. ambassador warned he had just two more months to start curbing the violence or face catastrophe, Nuri al-Maliki met Sunnis and fellow Shi’ite majority leaders to agree a four-point plan focused on all-party local committees in the capital and unspecified new controls on the media. > > Though short on detail, it bears the hopes of a nation. > [@](#): > > U.S. officials are uneasy that Maliki’s unity cabinet, four months after it was formed, has yet to act firmly to rein in party militias and other groups behind sectarian violence. > > It is yet to be seen whether he can stop the death squads, some associated with his own Shi’ite allies and responsible for hundreds of killings a week. > > “We do not need militias,” Maliki said. > > The appearance of gunmen in camouflage uniform and driving what looked like government-issue off-road vehicles outside a row of computer stores near Baghdad’s Technology University on Monday did nothing to dispel fears the U.S.-trained security forces remain deeply infiltrated by criminals and militiamen. > > They seized 14 people, mostly shopworkers, and drove off in seven trucks without licence plates, witnesses and police said. > > A day earlier, gunmen seized 26 workers from a meat processing plant. Such mass kidnaps have become common in recent months, and have been followed by a mixture of ransom demands, the release of some captives, and the death of many. > > A Sunni party said all 26 were Sunnis and were found dead. But police said four escaped from a meat truck and the fate of the 22 others, some of whom were Shi’ites, was still unclear. > > A further 30 bodies were found in Baghdad, said an Interior Ministry official – a typical day. Many had been tortured with power drills or acid, most were bound and shot. Police pulled seven headless corpses from the Tigris downstream of the city. > > On Sunday, U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad reiterated a view that Maliki had only six months from the moment his cabinet it was formed to start turning around a slide toward a conflict that many fear could break the oil-rich nation into warring blocs and drag in Arab, Iranian and Turkish neighbours. Holding the outlook you do in the overwhelming face of the reality on the ground in Iraq makes Pangloss seem like the bitterest of cynics. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/29 "2006-10-05T13:10:52Z")
One day later. While we are waiting for the avalanche of good news that even as I’m type I’m certain is racing towards this thread like a tsunami accross a cess pool let’s look at a by-product of the ever-improving security situation. [Iraq’s Universities and Schools near to collapse as students and teachers flee](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1887804,00.html) > [@](#): > > Iraq’s school and university system is in danger of collapse in large areas of the country as pupils and teachers take flight in the face of threats of violence. > [@](#): > > Universities from Basra in the south to Kirkuk and Mosul in the north have been infiltrated by militia organisations, while the same militias from Islamic organisations regularly intimidate female students at the school and university gates for failing to wear the hijab. > > Women teachers have been ordered by their ministry to adopt Islamic codes of clothing and behaviour. > > “The militias from all sides are in the universities. Classes are not happening because of the chaos, and colleagues are fleeing if they can,” said Professor Saad Jawad, a lecturer in political science at Baghdad University. > [@](#): > > Mohammed U, a 60-year-old science professor who asked for his full name not to be disclosed, spoke to the Guardian after returning from the funeral of a colleague, a law professor and head of the law faculty, who died in an explosion. > > "Education here is a complete shambles. Professors are leaving, and the situation - the closed roads and bridges - means that both students and teachers find it difficult to get in for classes. In some departments in my institute attendance is down to a third. In others we have instances of no students turning up at all. > > “Students are really struggling. To get them through at all, we have had to lower academic levels. We have to go easy on them. The whole system is becoming rapidly degraded.” Students daren’t go to school. Teachers are fleeing the country and still there are people (who I can only assume live in a cave on Mars with their only contact with Earth a fat lying drug addict slug) who claim things are getting better or are about to, once we turn this next corner. (The last one - honest). And WTF makes anyone think us staying is going to help? This appears to be our policy now. [The always hitting the spot Steve Bell. Now with added camels.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,1656182,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/30 "2006-10-05T14:09:25Z")
Wow Hyde 300 000 trained. We can come home now.Thats a lot more than we were said we need. Of course since there are no jobs ,they join to eat. No conviction and no desire to actually do our bidding. The fact that our government has lied about the trained troops for 3 years gives me pause. If there were any thing near that ,there would be stability. The situation is deteriorating ,why would that be? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/31 "2006-10-05T14:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Wow Hyde 300 000 trained. We can come home now.Thats a lot more than we were said we need. Of course since there are no jobs ,they join to eat. No conviction and no desire to actually do our bidding. The fact that our government has lied about the trained troops for 3 years gives me pause. If there were any thing near that ,there would be stability. The situation is deteriorating ,why would that be? [/QUOTE] Because shit like this keeps happening? [700 hundred police sit down again](http://24hour.startribune.com/24hour/world/story/3388211p-12458981c.html) > [@](#): > > Amid the escalating violence, Iraqi authorities on Wednesday pulled a brigade of about 700 policemen out of service in its biggest move ever to uproot troops linked to death squads, aiming to signal the government’s seriousness in cleansing Baghdad of sectarian violence. > [@](#): > > The brigade was responsible for a region of northeast Baghdad with a slight Shiite majority, where gunmen on Sunday kidnapped 24 workers from a frozen food factory. Hours later, the bodies of seven of the workers were found dumped in a district miles away. > > Sunni politicians have said all those who were kidnapped were members of the minority sect. They blamed Shiite militias for the abduction and accused police of letting the gunmen escape and move freely with their captives. > > Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, the chief spokesman for the Interior Ministry, which oversees the police, said the brigade was being investigated because it “didn’t respond quickly” to the kidnapping. > > Caldwell said the police brigade in the area had been ordered to stand down and was undergoing retraining. He said some troops were being investigated and that any found to have militia ties would be removed. > > “There is clear evidence that there was some complicity in allowing death squad elements to move freely when, in fact, they were supposed to have been impeding their movement,” Caldwell said at a news conference. But I’m sure we’re all making too much of this. I’m certain, like with the US Army when shit happens it’s all due to the mysterious tendency of rotten apples to gravitate together. Newton was working on the problem, but sadly he died before cracking it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/32 "2006-10-05T17:45:59Z")
Actually because they are lying now and lied before. The administration will eventually run out of generals who are willing to say things are going to plan. Then Rummy and Cheney will have to do their own lying again. The evidence is collecting. and will be unavoidable soon. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733/33 "2006-10-06T16:49:01Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Oh, for fuck’s sake! Its comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you have noticed that things in Iraq aren’t exactly the same as in down town bumfuck, USA? Perhaps its slipped your notice? In addition, training available to the average US soldier doesn’t have to be done in an environment where the recruits have to constantly fear for their lives? Maybe you missed that, ehe? Also, we don’t have to rebuild an army from scratch, not having had ours wiped out in wars of attrition with Iran, and then slammed in 2 successive wars with a major power, after which it was disbanded. Used to live in Ottawa…and have been in Ontario as well. I dont recall anyone blowing up cars or leaving mines in front of the police recruiting areas, or specifically targetting police officers and their stations. Maybe I missed it? Could you link me some of these kinds of attack happening in Canada perhaps? Otherwise, does the term ‘comparing apples to oranges’ mean anything to you? As for your contention that we can train Marines in 16-weeks of basic and an Army recruit in about 3 months, thats true enough (for basic training…you realize that there is advanced training for the combat arms I’m sure). Of course, we have had a contiguous military for something like 200 years, without having it take a major thump (even in Vietnam), or be disbanded. I’m guessing (just a guess mind you) that having your military wiped out and disbanded would have a detrimental effect on stuff like training, morale…all manner of things. Coupled with the fact that recruits are targets as well, and so ‘training’ is a bit more hazardous than to the average American (or Canadian), and the fact that THESE troops are going to have to hit the ground running, so to speak… Gee…no idea really. -XT [/QUOTE] Training of American soldiers is and has for several years, a program to put soldiiers in a hostile environment. They have to fear for their lives and live on a compound in the green zone. They are potental targets once they start too move. We have not needed to extend our training to a couple years. The Iraqis are not soldiers. They just want a way to feed their families. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/come-to-think-of-it-why-do-we-need-to-train-iraqi-soldiers-police/374733.md?page=1)